Question about the Warre approach

[Pope Pius IX]

Hello everyone, first post on here so if it's in the wrong place, apologies.

I got a colony last year after a ten-year absence. I'm thinking of, if I get a swarm this year, running one hive along Warre principles, which is to say, nadiring and only providing top bars.

But I've got a few questions about the practicalities of Warre's approach, and I'd appreciate either an answer or someone telling me what I've not taken into account...

So, if I've got a couple of boxes and they've both got top bars in only, and a swarm goes into them, they'll start building down from the top top bars, right...but what will they do when they get to the second set of top bars? Won't the second set of bars simply get absorbed into the comb from the top set of top bars?

And sort-of stemming from that, when the time comes to nab the honey, if I remove the top box, wouldn't that basically massively damage all the comb below? (And separately, how do I extract honey from comb if it's not on foundation?)

And finally...when nadiring, does one fit a bee escape so that the two top boxes can be removed without being full of bees?

I'm certain Warre would have thought of all this but I'm not sure I can see the answers...

Thanks all!

 

[Fritillary]

I have no experience with Warres, but hopefully someone will reply who does.

Have you checked out David Heaf online for information about running Warres?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm certain Warre would have thought of all this but I'm not sure I can see the answers...

I think somewhere there's a quote from one of Warre's contemporaries which goes along the lines of
"nice bloke, just doesn't know much about bees"


When nadiring, there are no escapes or bee clearing, you just lift the whole stack of boxes and slip in a new one at the bottom.
You'll need the strength of Atlas to lift the hive in one to nadir a new box although there are apprently fancy little gadgets to be had to do the lifting for you (which sort of negates the ethos of 'the people's hive')
yes, all the combs are liable to be braced together so you need a sort of cheese wire gadget to cut them apart.
You have to extract the honey by 'crush and strain'
I remember the year my cousin's wife as WBKA events officer decided to do something different for the Royal Welsh stand, I helped her by doing all the Welsh tranlations for the information cards on a selection of traditional African hives, at the time some clown was heading a campaign to give every household in the valleys a Warre hive 'to save the bees' so that took pride of place (for a while) First day, up strolled Frank Gellatly the Wales RBI, took one look at it, took a deep breath and well......... let's leave it at that
He did say that he didn't believe I had anything to do it, but after a good half hour with various SBI's and others holding forth, the warre quickly became a handy stand to put our coffees on.
I remember a few years previously Pam Gregory discussing them, same kind of conversation but without the language

 

[madasafish]

So, if I've got a couple of boxes and they've both got top bars in only, and a swarm goes into them, they'll start building down from the top top bars, right...but what will they do when they get to the second set of top bars? Won't the second set of bars simply get absorbed into the comb from the top set of top bars? Yes.

And sort-of stemming from that, when the time comes to nab the honey, if I remove the top box, wouldn't that basically massively damage all the comb below?
Use a wire to cut through the join between both boxes...

And finally...when nadiring, does one fit a bee escape so that the two top boxes can be removed without being full of bees?
I shook them out.PIA.

(And separately, how do I extract honey from comb if it's not on foundation?)

Crush and strain or press and strain.. I have a home built press for top bar/warres..free to anyone who wants one..

I'm certain Warre would have thought of all this but I'm not sure I can see the answers...


Warre had cheap labour in the form of junior/apprentice monks.

Thanks all!

I gave up after one warre hive. Antediluvian..

 

[drex]

I have run a Warre for a few years, purely for interest sake.
The boxes are small, and I am not big, but have no problem lifting them to nadir, but you do have to be organised. I do not use cheese wire or the specialist Warre hive tool, simply an old bread knife. Also run two Ktbh but mainly nationals

 

[Pope Pius IX]

Thanks for all this everyone. My intention wasn't necessarily to use a Warre hive, just the Warre approach - nadiring and no foundation.

I may now modify that to nadiring but with foundation - I do worry that if one lot of comb got onto another, I'd end up wrecking the bees' hard work, for all that I do have sympathy with the whole "bees like to build downward" point.

Is this some sort of middle way, where I nadir whilst providing foundation? I'd be able to use regular-size brood frames too, I guess (or super frames) and could bung bee escapes in there too.

There's nothing new under the sun, so if anyone's tried the above as a weird half-way house between regular and Warre, I'd be pleased to hear...?

With thanks in advance!

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for all this everyone. My intention wasn't necessarily to use a Warre hive, just the Warre approach - nadiring and no foundation.

I may now modify that to nadiring but with foundation - I do worry that if one lot of comb got onto another, I'd end up wrecking the bees' hard work, for all that I do have sympathy with the whole "bees like to build downward" point.

Is this some sort of middle way, where I nadir whilst providing foundation? I'd be able to use regular-size brood frames too, I guess (or super frames) and could bung bee escapes in there too.

There's nothing new under the sun, so if anyone's tried the above as a weird half-way house between regular and Warre, I'd be pleased to hear...?

With thanks in advance!

Have a think about going foundationless then .... start here ... No need to nadir ...

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27494

 

[viridens]

Some Warre notes:
Warre hives are easy to construct with basic skills and basic tools. Cheap too. BTW, there is no need for the traditional fancy roof. I use a simple design using old estate agent's twin wall signs, and celotex under.

Windows work well with no side frame bars and save the need for inspections - e.g. I can see when a box is fully capped and ready for harvest. My windows are cheap thin bottle plastic not glass or perspex.

No need for foundation. I pour a thin line of melted wax against the wet edge of a guide which when moved away leaves a thin strip of wax down the centre of the top bar as a starter.

Harvesting for cut comb or crush and strain means no need for an extractor.

Nadiring is easier with a lift. Most are complex and clever. Mine uses two car scissor jacks and cost around a tenner. See it near the bottom of the page here: https://warre.------------/lift.htm

Traditional Warre management is 'hands off", and regular 'inspections' are discouraged. It can be very difficult to work through a box with comb attachments and/or cross combs. It is easy to end up with a bar and bit of comb in your hand and a dripping mess in the box, wondering what the hell to do to sort it out..

Remember also that when the colony is building up and when there is a good flow you are adding empty boxes with bars to be drawn rather than comb ready for laying or storage. Having said that, they seem no more likely to swarm than do framed hives.

 

[deemann1]

Have a look at gilles denis webpage he runs over 300 warre hives

 

[Pope Pius IX]

Thanks everyone, very interesting - the Ruche Warre makes me wish I'd kept going with French!

Couple of questions for pargyle - how do you personally extract the honey, and also, how (if at all) do you ensure that when honeycomb IS removed for harvesting, it's not covered in bees - or do you just brush them off? I tried that once when I first started and they got very tetchy about it...

 

[bingevader]

Maybe not the best place to post! But you weren't to know that! There's a beginner's section that helps to avoid any unnecessary flak!

As mentioned, David Heaf is a good place to start.
I've run a couple of Warré hives for 3 years now and enjoy them.
You don't have to be Atlas.
Whilst some use lifts to remove boxes all in one go, it's very simple to split each box, one at a time, in exactly the same way you do with any other system.
I don't know of anyone who tries to lift all the supers off a national in one go to inspect the brood box!!
No, personally, I haven't found the bees attach comb to the top bar below, they stop and leave a gap, I'll find some pics.
But if they do, a piece of wire can simply be used to free comb if it has been attached to bar below.
When nadiring, you just remove the boxes and place the new one underneath.
Why would you need to clear bees or shake them out!?
Again, I don't know of anyone doing this to supers on a national to inspect the brood box underneath!
People like to make things sound complicated if they want to deter you from something.
Warré's approach was, "Beekeeping for All", it was designed to be simple.
And for the record!
I still regularly inspect, treat for varroa and manage for swarms.

Yes, this approach could all be possible with a different set up.
We've run foundationless brood boxes in our nationals for a while now with no problem.
We still use frames, just no foundation.
We don't tend to nadir the supers! They still go on the top and they still have foundation as it is easier to extract.

 

[Worldsend]

SBI locally refers to them as worry hives

 

[Teebeeaitch]

I think Bingevader has it pretty much spot on there, nothing much I can add. I have run Warres for about ten years and never needed to try and lift multiple boxes either. The question of harvesting honey is pretty much the same as any hive. Lift the top box and use a rhombus bee escape to clear them.

 

[Madge]

I think the most important aspect of a Warré hive is its size - not nadiring or using top bars.

I’m sure I read somewhere that Warré originally designed the hives using frames, but changed to top bars for the sake of economy in constructing the hives.

I still hope to build a Warré hive one day - but definitely using frames, and supering rather than nadiring.

Why make life difficult? The bees will be happy whatever, and you’ll be able to properly check them for disease, and harvest honey easier and with less disruption to the bees.

 

[Pope Pius IX]

Thanks very much again everyone (incidentally, if this is all moderated and needs to be moved to any relevant section, I don't mind, and accept my apologies for posting it wrongly!)

I'm still unsure as to which way I'll go; as I say, I'd like to explore some aspects of Warre's work, like the nadiring and the framelessness, and at the same time I'm not able to call myself a fully dedicated beekeeper, as I've got one hive at present and a job that's not associated with bees at all.

On the other hand, if using Warre methods means I can't easily get honey and/or on the occasions I do need to open up the hive for whatever reason I destroy a vast amount of work by ripping up comb, I'd rather not use that approach.

So my main concerns were, can one get honey without kidnapping a load of bees - the answer is "yes", it seems, and, do bees connect top bars from below-top-level boxes to the comb from the top level, and to that, the answer is "no" - I'd really appreciate the pictures you say you can provide, bingevader, but I do believe you!

So that means that if I do end up with a swarm this year, I may well try Warre just to see - I will keep anyone interested posted on how it goes, but I now need a swarm and to be honest, with this colony only one year old, I'm hoping not to get one...

Any further thoughts are still very welcomed!

 

[bingevader]

I'd really appreciate the pictures you say you can provide, bingevader, but I do believe you!

I never doubted it for a minute!

 

[bingevader]

Hmm, didn't appear for some reason! No smashed comb or sticky mess.