Query about lame bees

[Treblebee]

So, I've started beekeeping! Overall it's going fine; I've had them for a little over a week now, and although I have so far failed to spot the queen, which is a little worrying, the amount of brood seems fine, and the bees seem mostly happy, so she's probably in there. However, I am a bit concerned, because I've noticed quite a number of stranded bees walking within 10 feet of the hive. I've seen some of them just fly away after a few minutes, so assume those are just taking a break, but others seem unable to fly, or even, to walk properly. Their tongues are stuck out, and their front legs appear to be trying to push the tongues back in, and failing. They keep rolling onto their backs, because of uneven walking, although I've examined their legs, and they look fine. This is quite confusing and rather worrying, so any help would be much appreciated!
Thanks...

 

[wessexmario]

Don't worry about not spotting the queen, you'll soon get your eye in to spot her. As long as you have BIAS (brood in all stages) then you can relax and she can be as secretive as she likes.

"quite a number"?
Are there 10's, 100's or thousands doing this?

If they're all flying away ok afterwards, it could just be the air near the ground is much colder than higher up, when they fly into it they're temporarily chilled.


ps. Do put at least a county in your profile - it sometimes helps to understand problems with relation to the weather if we know where you are.

 

[enrico]

They are probably flying under the hive, spending all night under the mesh floor, can't get food or water and eventually falling off too weak to do anything. Block the gap between the entrance and the ground. There lies your problem I bet you!
E

 

[pargyle]

So, I've started beekeeping! Overall it's going fine; I've had them for a little over a week now, and although I have so far failed to spot the queen, which is a little worrying, the amount of brood seems fine, and the bees seem mostly happy, so she's probably in there. However, I am a bit concerned, because I've noticed quite a number of stranded bees walking within 10 feet of the hive. I've seen some of them just fly away after a few minutes, so assume those are just taking a break, but others seem unable to fly, or even, to walk properly. Their tongues are stuck out, and their front legs appear to be trying to push the tongues back in, and failing. They keep rolling onto their backs, because of uneven walking, although I've examined their legs, and they look fine. This is quite confusing and rather worrying, so any help would be much appreciated!
Thanks...

Could be Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus .. there are two strains .. one where the bees have shiny abdomens that are distended (the shininess is the result of healthy bees nibbling at them - presumably to keep them away). The other strain often results in bees that cannot fly, have erratic movements and bees can be seen crawling around in the front of the hive. Jerky movements and using the front legs to try and clear their mandibles are common symptoms.

Don't panic .. even if this is what you have - it's a virus, there's no treatment but healthy colonies usually evict the carriers (and you can see lots of bees on the floor in front of the hive) and they will recover.

The only odd thing in your post that doesn't match is that you have seen some of them fly away ...

Have you seen any evidence of bees on the frames acting in an erratic manner .. slow jerky movements and they tend not to move out of the way when you prod them. I've only ever seen one hive infected with this so there may be people out there with a better idea .. the hive I saw was requeened shortly after diagnosis and made a full recovery.

Where did you get your bees from ? Was it a Nuc or a full colony ?

 

[Dishmop]

Do you have a feeder on?

 

[Treblebee]

Could be Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus .. there are two strains .. one where the bees have shiny abdomens that are distended (the shininess is the result of healthy bees nibbling at them - presumably to keep them away). The other strain often results in bees that cannot fly, have erratic movements and bees can be seen crawling around in the front of the hive. Jerky movements and using the front legs to try and clear their mandibles are common symptoms.

Don't panic .. even if this is what you have - it's a virus, there's no treatment but healthy colonies usually evict the carriers (and you can see lots of bees on the floor in front of the hive) and they will recover.

The only odd thing in your post that doesn't match is that you have seen some of them fly away ...

Have you seen any evidence of bees on the frames acting in an erratic manner .. slow jerky movements and they tend not to move out of the way when you prod them. I've only ever seen one hive infected with this so there may be people out there with a better idea .. the hive I saw was requeened shortly after diagnosis and made a full recovery.

Where did you get your bees from ? Was it a Nuc or a full colony ?

That sounds like it - more recently, the number of bees walking around about the hive has increased. Thank you for telling me about it. The bees came from a Nuc. Do you think I should have it re-queened? If so, do you have any tips? If not, do you have any idea how long it would take to fix? (I think it might be the first version.) Thx

 

[Dishmop]

and if you do have a feeder, the bees may just be soaked in syrup...

 

[pargyle]

That sounds like it - more recently, the number of bees walking around about the hive has increased. Thank you for telling me about it. The bees came from a Nuc. Do you think I should have it re-queened? If so, do you have any tips? If not, do you have any idea how long it would take to fix? (I think it might be the first version.) Thx

Firstly, did you buy the Nuc ? If you did and you are certain it is CBPV then I would be talking to whoever sold it to you first. Prior to that is there an experienced beekeeper you know who could take a look .. it's a virus that is in a lot of colonies but generally only affects a small number of bees rather than masses of them so I'd want to be sure before I start banging the drum.

Secondly, it is not always necessary to re-queen as the virus is passed from bee to bee by feeding and transfer so it may not be inherent in a queen.

I'm a bit at the limit of my knowledge here having only seen one badly infected colony that was re-queened by the beekeeper as he had a recurring problem in this colony with the virus - but my understanding is that this is not always necessary. Many colonies sort the problem out themselves.

The only worry that I would have is that, as it is a Nuc, and a new one at that, it may have been a thrown together one and not particularly large or thriving colony. You say that the queen is laying well ... how many frames have you got with brood on them ?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Firstly, did you buy the Nuc ? If you did and you are certain it is CBPV then I would be talking to whoever sold it to you first. Prior to that is there an experienced beekeeper you know who could take a look .. it's a virus that is in a lot of colonies but generally only affects a small number of bees rather than masses of them so I'd want to be sure before I start banging the drum.

Secondly, it is not always necessary to re-queen as the virus is passed from bee to bee by feeding and transfer so it may not be inherent in a queen.

I'm a bit at the limit of my knowledge here having only seen one badly infected colony that was re-queened by the beekeeper as he had a recurring problem in this colony with the virus - but my understanding is that this is not always necessary. Many colonies sort the problem out themselves.

The only worry that I would have is that, as it is a Nuc, and a new one at that, it may have been a thrown together one and not particularly large or thriving colony. You say that the queen is laying well ... how many frames have you got with brood on them ?

with all the above. You shouldn't be seeing sings of diseased bees within the first few weeks, or months.

A new nuc from a reputable source should be healthy and free of any disease. That doesn't just mean just free of the foulbroods, it means there should be no signs of any ailments including DWV, chalkbrood, CPBV etc.

Get somebody local to take a look, or contact your SBI.
SBI for Bristol is:
Megan Seymour
[email protected]
Mobile No: 07775 119475

More contact info on this page http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/public/Contacts/contacts.cfm#searchPostcode

 

[Treblebee]

Thx for all the help! I'll try to get it checked, in that case.

 

[masterBK]

Pargyle: The CBPV is mainly transmitted via contact between workers entering though broken bristles (setae) so is more of a problem when the bees are congested and so bump into lots of their sisters within the hive. Requeening from an unrelated queen works because you change the genome and hence the genetic susceptibility of the workers (most bees seem resistant to the virus) . I suppose it is possible to end up with bees more affected than the original ones but so far this has never happened whenever I requeened such colonies

 

[pargyle]

Pargyle: The CBPV is mainly transmitted via contact between workers entering though broken bristles (setae) so is more of a problem when the bees are congested and so bump into lots of their sisters within the hive. Requeening from an unrelated queen works because you change the genome and hence the genetic susceptibility of the workers (most bees seem resistant to the virus) . I suppose it is possible to end up with bees more affected than the original ones but so far this has never happened whenever I requeened such colonies

Like I said .. my experience with CBPV is limited .. the symptoms the OP was describing struck a chord with what I had seen in another beekeepers hive on one occasion ..

So .. Do you think it is possible that the OP's new nuc is infected and (apart from taking it back to the seller) is requeening the only certain treatment ?

Just asking ... I'm as interested as the OP ...

Phil

 

[BeeJayBee]

Our SBI suggests a shook swarm if they see shiny bees, which could be CPBV or other virus. They acknowledge that a weak colony might not make it, and a very weak colony often isn't worth requeening.

But that's not the point. A new nuc should be clean - clean frames, clean bees.

 

[masterBK]

Maybe the SBI has read this in which case there is logic to putting the colony onto clean comb

http://aem.asm.org/content/73/23/7711.full

Seems the virus can be passed out of the bee in their faeces and can infect other adult workers when they are confined in faeces contaminated places