Queen excluders & lower entrance colonies

[REDWOOD]

We tried a few Bailey comb changes last season and found the stress / disruption to the hives was very excessive, lots of dead bees in the inside of the old bottom box and during all the confusion of blocking the entrance on the lower box the flying bees would just keep bouncing off the old entrance and eventually instead of finding the new upper entrance they would fly over to one of the other hives.

I would like to try it again but instead this time as an experiment I would temporally take away the hive stand and reduce the height of the hive so that the new entrance is at the same level as the original flight path, hopefully that would limit the stress in the hive along with the bees getting mad angry and going AWOL.

I have never done a Bailey's that way, the only bees that get stressed are a few drones that can't get through the QE, that's why it is important to do it earlier in the season rather than later unless you inspect every few days to release the drones.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree it was a horrible sight to see, just absolute chaos and confusion in the hives.[/B]

That's how I felt and I won't be doing it again

 

[BeeJayBee]

We tried a few Bailey comb changes last season and found the stress / disruption to the hives was very excessive, lots of dead bees in the inside of the old bottom box and during all the confusion of blocking the entrance on the lower box the flying bees would just keep bouncing off the old entrance and eventually instead of finding the new upper entrance they would fly over to one of the other hives.

I would like to try it again but instead this time as an experiment I would temporally take away the hive stand and reduce the height of the hive so that the new entrance is at the same level as the original flight path, hopefully that would limit the stress in the hive along with the bees getting mad angry and going AWOL.

I have never done a Bailey's that way, ...

Beecarer, try reading Dave Cushman's description. There is nothing about using an upper entrance. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/baileychange.html

 

[Beecarer]

Beecarer, try reading Dave Cushman's description. There is nothing about using an upper entrance. http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/baileychange.html

Well that was an interesting read to say the least, apologies to Lesley Bailey if the method described by Dave Cushman is as Lesley would have instructed initially, does anyone have his original writings to clarify? How such basic instructions got misinterpreted is amazing really...

here are an example of its instructions over here I found online.

1.
Find queen and remove her on
the cleanest frame of brood
placing them in a new brood box
full of foundation

2.
Close entrance to old brood box

3.
On top of the old brood box place
Queen excluder
followed by
an
eke with an entrance facing out
in the same d
irec
tion as
the old
one

4.
Place the new brood box now
containing the queen, one frame
of brood and frames of
foundation on top of this.

5.
Place an Ashford feeder on top of
the new brood box ( a 5litre
bucket feeder will also do)

6.
The bees will orientate back to
the
new top entrance.

7.
The brood in the bottom box will
all hatch within 24
days the top
box will be laid
up.

8.
Remove the old b
ox and replace
the floor board
and crown board
with a clean one.

9.
A week after setting up the
original brood box it should be
checked f
or queen cells

10.
It may be necessary to make
provision to allow drones to
escape from the bottom box,
allow a gap between the front
wall by moving the excluder
back. It is highly unlikely that the
queen will find it and go back
down.

11.
After removing the old
box the
combs can be graded those that
are less than two year old can be
sterilized and kept for nucs, the
older blacker combs
treated as
below.

The beekeeper advising me to do this was very 'experienced' in the world of beekeeping. I myself am very new but watching bees bouncing off their front door for days on end stressed me out so cant imagine how they would be feeling, probably feeling similar to the kind of head you get off a bottle of poitín the next morning, hence why I though of taking away the hive stand to help them, no one wants that kind of banging headache!...

 

[masterBK]

Having carried out Bailey comb change many times over the years I never had problems with bees "bouncing off" the closed main entrance for days. They quickly orientate (usually within the hour) presumably the bees that walk upwards to find the new entrance leave a trail of footprint pheromone (from tarsal glands in their feet) ) to guide others . There is a tendency amongst some beekeepers to be anthropomorphic about their bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well that was an interesting read to say the least, apologies to Lesley Bailey if the method described by Dave Cushman is as Lesley would have instructed initially, does anyone have his original writings to clarify? How such basic instructions got misinterpreted is amazing really...

here are an example of its instructions over here I found online.

1.
Find queen and remove her on
the cleanest frame of brood
placing them in a new brood box
full of foundation

2.
Close entrance to old brood box

3.
On top of the old brood box place
Queen excluder
followed by
an
eke with an entrance facing out
in the same d
irec
tion as
the old
one

4.
Place the new brood box now
containing the queen, one frame
of brood and frames of
foundation on top of this.

5.
Place an Ashford feeder on top of
the new brood box ( a 5litre
bucket feeder will also do)

6.
The bees will orientate back to
the
new top entrance.

7.
The brood in the bottom box will
all hatch within 24
days the top
box will be laid
up.

8.
Remove the old b
ox and replace
the floor board
and crown board
with a clean one.

9.
A week after setting up the
original brood box it should be
checked f
or queen cells

10.
It may be necessary to make
provision to allow drones to
escape from the bottom box,
allow a gap between the front
wall by moving the excluder
back. It is highly unlikely that the
queen will find it and go back
down.

11.
After removing the old
box the
combs can be graded those that
are less than two year old can be
sterilized and kept for nucs, the
older blacker combs
treated as
below.

The beekeeper advising me to do this was very 'experienced' in the world of beekeeping. I myself am very new but watching bees bouncing off their front door for days on end stressed me out so cant imagine how they would be feeling, probably feeling similar to the kind of head you get off a bottle of poitín the next morning, hence why I though of taking away the hive stand to help them, no one wants that kind of banging headache!...

sounds nothing at all like a Bailey change to me

 

[Hivemaker.]

sounds nothing at all like a Bailey change to me

It is described as the original method of bailey comb change to me.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I bow to your superior knowledge Pete - just that every account I've read says to put the queen above the excluder after the bees have started drawing comb or onto a mixture of sterilised drawn comb and foundation and the upper entrance seems to be a new innovation.

 

[Hivemaker.]

the upper entrance seems to be a new innovation.

a bailley change as done at Rothamsted in the 70 when i worked there as a Student had the lower entrance blocked and a new entrance above the QE (under the new box), this method is in Yates and also on the NBU web site, it allows the bees to access the new brood without the forage bees walking over the old comb and also makes them less inclined to store pollen in the lower box

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=322008&postcount=4

 

[Finman]

.
Strange tricks.
..
.

 

[Hivemaker.]

.
Strange tricks.

Yes, they are indeed, ridiculous.

 

[Millet]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=322008&postcount=4

Not trying to be a **** BUT can you not type your reply instead of quoting them, as it does my heed in(Northumberland Spelling) Head in looking a multiple pointless links and quotes .

 

[Hivemaker.]

Not trying to be a **** BUT can you not type your reply instead of quoting them, as it does my heed in(Northumberland Spelling) Head in looking a multiple pointless links and quotes .

Tough, if you don't like it, don't bother.

 

[Beecarer]

Having carried out Bailey comb change many times over the years I never had problems with bees "bouncing off" the closed main entrance for days. They quickly orientate (usually within the hour) presumably the bees that walk upwards to find the new entrance leave a trail of footprint pheromone (from tarsal glands in their feet) ) to guide others . There is a tendency amongst some beekeepers to be anthropomorphic about their bees.

Some were still bouncing off the old entrance over a week later and in the short periods of time observing them I watched countless bees just flying over to other hives, not good id imagine for biosecurity. Then once things have settled down and they are back to normal with the new higher fight path a few weeks later you go and change the entrance back down to the original lower flight path driving them mental again.

I'm sure any living creature human or otherwise wouldn't appreciate being messed with like that and they don't, they are far more aggressive to be around while all this is going on, quite a number of kamikaze bees that fly at you so hard that they sting straight through the suit, it was the only time I encountered that type of bullet stinger bee.

 

[Beecarer]

That's how I felt and I won't be doing it again

From chatting with people who have done the shook swarm they find it really invigorates a colony and drives them on. Have you tried the shook swarm?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

From chatting with people who have done the shook swarm they find it really invigorates a colony and drives them on. Have you tried the shook swarm?

the only justification for doing a shook swarm is if there is a serious disease problem (EFB is the usual)

Any other time is sheer foolishness - waste of brood, waste of honey, stresses the bees out to no end, can cause drifting in a large apiary.

This 'invigorating' the colony is sheer fallacy.

And you get concerned about bio security and the fact they get slightly upset when you move the entrance!

Cue Finman....................

 

[Finman]

From chatting with people who have done the shook swarm they find it really invigorates a colony and drives them on. Have you tried the shook swarm?

What is the annual honey yield in those hives?
.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

as inevitable as syphillis in an infantry camp

 

[Erichalfbee]

From chatting with people who have done the shook swarm they find it really invigorates a colony and drives them on. Have you tried the shook swarm?

No and no plans too.
I agree completely with JBM's criticisms of it.
Anyway, if you do a Pagden AS keeping just the one frame with the queen on in the new box you get a whole box of new frames and you keep the brood

 

[Beecarer]

the only justification for doing a shook swarm is if there is a serious disease problem (EFB is the usual)

Any other time is sheer foolishness - waste of brood, waste of honey, stresses the bees out to no end, can cause drifting in a large apiary.

This 'invigorating' the colony is sheer fallacy.

And you get concerned about bio security and the fact they get slightly upset when you move the entrance!

Cue Finman....................

Nobody who described the shook swarm said any of those things you've mentioned, I haven't seen it done and won't be doing it now either if people find it stresses the hive out even more than blocking their entrance. Both methods so have biosecurity issues, slightly upset as in piles of dead bees huddled at the entrance on the inside that's more than them being slightly upset.