Queen balling

[elainemary]

A separate thread on queen marking has brought back my worst beekeeping experience ever - queen balling. Happened last year (2019) towards end of season when trying to catch a queen to mark. She was a young queen, dashed around the comb, should have left her. Resulted in bees balling her. Tried to save her by pulling off bees, she was slightly moving so put her in a cage with a couple of workers but she was dead the next day. She was a nice sized queen from an otherwise v gentle colony & lost that line. Gutted, had to unite to another colony as too late to replace her. Lots of learning from that incident including don’t try to mark or clip towards the end of the season.

Have subsequently tried to find out more about balling causes, what triggers biologically & why. Very little knowledge about it but read in one paper about pheromones, that it’s probably caused by a pheromone the queen releases when she’s frightened, the bees then don’t recognise her as their queen, resulting in balling.

Have you had any balling incidents and what do you do when you see it happening? Keen to learn more

Elaine

 

[GuyNir]

Had similar incident last year, though I suspected the Q balled wasn’t the only Q in the colony. I suspected that by the way she behaved on the comb and it was confirmed couple weeks after.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A separate thread on queen marking has brought back my worst beekeeping experience ever - queen balling. Happened last year (2019) towards end of season when trying to catch a queen to mark. She was a young queen, dashed around the comb,

That's why I have no truck with these one handed/eyed/legged whatever queen catchers, plunger markers and the like. Nearly every time I've seen one used it involves chasing the queen around the comb for ages before shoving her in the tube - the stress pheromones must be sky high.

 

[Antipodes]

Had a queen balled when I took too much brood away for splits once. They might have thought it was her fault.

I killed a queen a couple of days ago (deliberately) and the bees were balling the carcass which I left with them, which was kinda interesting.

This season I have saved two queens from being balled to death. One was an introduced queen I checked on, and they turned on her. I chomped into the ball with the queen catcher after I dispersed some of it and saved her that way. The other was just a couple of days ago. I opened a swarm lured colony I brought to the home apiary, and couldn't find the queen when I opened it up. I didn't think too much of it, was about to put the lid back on and then heard a queen squealing. I started looking for her and then realised the sound was coming from the entrance of a huge colony next to the swarm colony. She had picked a very dangerous place to land, the jaws of death and was being balled badly. Anyhow, I knocked the ball around and then got the remaining ball (with the queen) in my clenched and gloved hand and kept it closed till I got into the car. When I opened my hand she was still being balled but they gave up soon and flew to the windows. Anyhow, she survived, was mated last week and is now laying well!

 

[Antipodes]

I filmed this balling a few weeks back.
View attachment Bees Balling Trimmed.mov

 

[Swarm]

A separate thread on queen marking has brought back my worst beekeeping experience ever - queen balling. Happened last year (2019) towards end of season when trying to catch a queen to mark. She was a young queen, dashed around the comb, should have left her. Resulted in bees balling her. Tried to save her by pulling off bees, she was slightly moving so put her in a cage with a couple of workers but she was dead the next day. She was a nice sized queen from an otherwise v gentle colony & lost that line. Gutted, had to unite to another colony as too late to replace her. Lots of learning from that incident including don’t try to mark or clip towards the end of the season.

Have subsequently tried to find out more about balling causes, what triggers biologically & why. Very little knowledge about it but read in one paper about pheromones, that it’s probably caused by a pheromone the queen releases when she’s frightened, the bees then don’t recognise her as their queen, resulting in balling.

Have you had any balling incidents and what do you do when you see it happening? Keen to learn more

Elaine

Not a nice experience Elaine, especially when exceptional queens. You made the best decision though, no need to disturb any young queen, that is much easier in Spring with less bees anyway.
My worst experience was with a beautiful black Amm queen and that was a while after introduction. I can only assume they reluctantly accepted her but had her death in mind all along (they were a horrible bunch). I found an egg sized ball of bees on the side wall, scooped them up and started breaking them up to get to her. I nearly succeeded, scattered most of the bees but in an attempt to grab her, she flew off. I followed her flight and she seemed to make her way back towards me but at that point I lost sight of her in the background vegetation.
I had another as I was inspecting a colony to determine its status. Small ball of bees on one of the outer combs, virgin queen. I broke them up with my finger and off she ran, I think it was a bit of a panic response. She was happily laying next time I looked.
I lost one of my best queens after marking her, paint had worn off so I decided to touch it up. I used a COT, yes covered in bees, move them, covered again, where is she? You get the idea. I imagine stress levels on that comb went through the roof. Anyway, she was OK when I closed up but never seen again.

 

[Curly green finger's]

From all of the posts I wonder what percentage of queens get killed after marking through stress.
I've not seen balling as yet.

 

[drex]

From all of the posts I wonder what percentage of queens get killed after marking through stress.
I've not seen balling as yet.

I mark all my queens using a COT or fingers. Never lost one yet after marking. I do let the paint dry before release.
Have had two go cataleptic ( comatose) but they both came round after being left alone for a few mins

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I mark all my queens using a COT or fingers. Never lost one yet after marking. I do let the paint dry before release.
Have had two go cataleptic ( comatose) but they both came round after being left alone for a few mins

Exactly the same for me, including the occasional swooning queen

 

[The Poot]

Not heard of this as an issue before. Interesting. As I can never find my queens (because they’re not marked) I’ve never had occasion to kill them with paint, which I’m sure I’d do if I tried......

 

[user 819]

I once white washed a Q whilst marking on the comb, mostly it all wore off overtime and she and the colony carried on as per usual.

 

[Antipodes]

Very little knowledge about it but read in one paper about pheromones, that it’s probably caused by a pheromone the queen releases when she’s frightened, the bees then don’t recognise her as their queen, resulting in balling.

Thanks Elainemary for this information. One to store in the knowledge bank. I find balling fascinating and shocking. The first queen I lost to it was my best too. Like Swarm, I've also broken up the ball to have a queen fly off... never to return. One thing I find interesting is how often the queen can survive balling. The one that flew off was being balled before I opened the hive....so I don't know how long they were at it, but it seems, from what I've seen with it, that the queen can sometimes be hard to kill. The other amazing thing is how determined the workers get in the process...they can be very hard to distract and stop.

 

[WoodenBeam]

From all of the posts I wonder what percentage of queens get killed after marking through stress.
I've not seen balling as yet.

Very few in my opinion, all queens marked & clipped here. I’ve had a couple of queens balled, possibly due to pheromones when going from colony to colony marking queens as going along? Only a guess???
If any are particularly skittish simply trapped in a crown of thorn’s, marked & then clipped on a subsequent visit. Would recommend when planning to mark queens go to the colony with that intention. Place an upturned roof close by, when found transfer frame with queen to upturned roof.
Did pick up a tip (possibly on here?), when a queen is getting balled, gouge some honey from the corner of the frame she’s on & smear her with it. Don’t be too worried about being careful, she’s gonna die so if you do it it’s just speeded up the process. The bees are then distracted by cleaning/eating up the honey & she’s saved - it does work

 

[elainemary]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I’ve tried to read up on balling and spoken to quite a few beekeepers about it. Good to listen to your experiences too. My conclusions are as follows
-it’s a traumatic experience - especially for the queen!
-observe the queens behaviour especially if she’s young eg if running around don’t attempt to mark or clip
- always mark on the comb (metal wooden crown of thorns is best) and wait to mark the queen once she’s been laying at least a couple of weeks. Like some of you I had a queen who flew off after I marked on the comb this year, fortunately I found her on some grass nearby & popped her back
-wait for paint to dry before releasing her from COT
-don’t clip or mark a queen if you intend to take her off the comb until the following spring, when she can easily be replaced due to lots of drones about
-observe behaviour as you release her if in any doubt put her into a cage with fondant & shut the hive up, to slow her release. Probably a good thing to do anyway if you’re clipping
- if you see a queen being balled, always have a water sprayer to hand to quickly spray the ball and shut the hive up (many older beekeepers with lots of time served, say the queen often survives this & some postulate in some circumstances the bees are protecting rather than killing her)
-edit - just seen the tip about smearing the queen with honey, to help mask pheromones and distract the bees. Good thought too re COT, dip in washing soda bucket before reusing between queens
Any other thoughts or tips pls do share
Elaine

 

[Curly green finger's]

Very few in my opinion, all queens marked & clipped here. I’ve had a couple of queens balled, possibly due to pheromones when going from colony to colony marking queens as going along? Only a guess???
If any are particularly skittish simply trapped in a crown of thorn’s, marked & then clipped on a subsequent visit. Would recommend when planning to mark queens go to the colony with that intention. Place an upturned roof close by, when found transfer frame with queen to upturned roof.
Did pick up a tip (possibly on here?), when a queen is getting balled, gouge some honey from the corner of the frame she’s on & smear her with it. Don’t be too worried about being careful, she’s gonna die so if you do it it’s just speeded up the process. The bees are then distracted by cleaning/eating up the honey & she’s saved - it does work

Thanks for the tips.

 

[rolande]

Throw the lot, queen and attached workers in a tub of clean water (I know, not necessarily something you'd normally carry) then give them a good swirl around with your finger - otherwise they just float on the surface and continue to cling on even tighter. Reintroduce under a push-in cage. All of this *if* you think she's worth the effort.

 

[NorthernAngel101]

Thank you for your conclusions Elainemary. All very carefully noted and appreciated.

I had a similar experience this year and your conclusions now make a lot of sense to that situation. I had a colony with a lot of swarm cells in sept so swiftly removed the queen to a nuc and left the colony to sort themselves out with the intention of uniting later. On inspection there was a beautiful queen that I immediately fell in love with so I decided to mark her. Oh my goodness on release the colony went wild and balled her but I managed to retrieve her and put her in a cage. I released her the next day as the weather forecast was bad for the next week and oh dear the same thing happened again. On trying to retrieve her again she flew off and disappeared in to the ether. I put the hive back together in shock pondering what a mess that had been. I stood at the front of the hive for a few minutes thinking well at least I have the old queen to put back in once things have settled down again. Then I caught the tail end of what I thought was the beloved queen walking back unchallenged into the hive? No way! Obviously hallucinating! Anyway on next inspection there she was wandering round on the frame, laying as if nothing had happened.....

 

[Ian123]

Throw the lot, queen and attached workers in a tub of clean water (I know, not necessarily something you'd normally carry) then give them a good swirl around with your finger - otherwise they just float on the surface and continue to cling on even tighter. Reintroduce under a push-in cage. All of this *if* you think she's worth the effort.

Yes the books suggest chucking in a mug of water to separate. I would suggest that by the time you get said mug the queens a gonner

 

[elainemary]

Thank you for your conclusions Elainemary. All very carefully noted and appreciated.

I had a similar experience this year and your conclusions now make a lot of sense to that situation. I had a colony with a lot of swarm cells in sept so swiftly removed the queen to a nuc and left the colony to sort themselves out with the intention of uniting later. On inspection there was a beautiful queen that I immediately fell in love with so I decided to mark her. Oh my goodness on release the colony went wild and balled her but I managed to retrieve her and put her in a cage. I released her the next day as the weather forecast was bad for the next week and oh dear the same thing happened again. On trying to retrieve her again she flew off and disappeared in to the ether. I put the hive back together in shock pondering what a mess that had been. I stood at the front of the hive for a few minutes thinking well at least I have the old queen to put back in once things have settled down again. Then I caught the tail end of what I thought was the beloved queen walking back unchallenged into the hive? No way! Obviously hallucinating! Anyway on next inspection there she was wandering round on the frame, laying as if nothing had happened.....

Great to learn from experience isn't it! Have subsequently been told when a young queen flies off she'll usually return as she's probably done some orienting flights to the hive. Others have also said, stay put for a couple of minutes as the last thing she'll have seen is you, so may use you as a landmark when returning.

 

[Antipodes]

Yes the books suggest chucking in a mug of water to separate. I would suggest that by the time you get said mug the queens a gonner

Smoke doesn't seem to work very well on a ball. I can't remember if I've tried water...sometimes I do have the spray bottle close, but I'd be inclined to give it a go. One thing is if the ball disperses enough to allow the queen to escape, the younger queens (introduced ie. not originated from that hive+ laying), sometimes seize the opportunity to take to the air, never to return. Wet sticky wings might help I guess to slow them down. Inside the car the ball gave up quickly...so that might be a trick if you can get the ball into the car. The queen then can't escape.