Positioning of superseded cells

[pargyle]

I think the main concerns I have are twofold in this thread... Firstly, the bandying about of the notion of hybrid vigour...which frankly is a bit esoteric if indeed it has any real meaning or value in beekeeping .... without any understanding of the genetics.

Secondly, the idea that meddling with hives in order to 'push bees to the limit' has any credence at all.

I have little need for seeking bees with hybrid vigour... my bees perform to the level they are capable of as a colony... some perform better than others but the gene pool needs this genetic diversity as bees that may not fill five supers could well have valuable other traits in their DNA. Seeking to push a colony to the limit by artificially influencing their behaviour can actually weaken or stress a colony and in due course you can live to regret this.

But, thereagain ... I'm not a proper beekeeper !

 

[Boston Bees]

I think the main concerns I have are twofold in this thread... Firstly, the bandying about of the notion of hybrid vigour...which frankly is a bit esoteric if indeed it has any real meaning or value in beekeeping ....

I have little need for seeking bees with hybrid vigour...

 

[drex]

Like Pargyle I try to practice "bee-centric" beekeeping. I do not push them to do anything. I can try to encourage them to go in a particular direction, but they always have the last say. Fro example, I raise queens from my best colonies. Some of the new queens are still crap. Mercifully my livelihood does not depend upon it.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I think the main concerns I have are twofold in this thread... Firstly, the bandying about of the notion of hybrid vigour...which frankly is a bit esoteric if indeed it has any real meaning or value in beekeeping .... without any understanding of the genetics.

Secondly, the idea that meddling with hives in order to 'push bees to the limit' has any credence at all.

I have little need for seeking bees with hybrid vigour... my bees perform to the level they are capable of as a colony... some perform better than others but the gene pool needs this genetic diversity as bees that may not fill five supers could well have valuable other traits in their DNA. Seeking to push a colony to the limit by artificially influencing their behaviour can actually weaken or stress a colony and in due course you can live to regret this.

But, thereagain ... I'm not a proper beekeeper !

DNA. Seeking to push a colony to the limit by artificially influencing their behaviour can actually weaken or stress a colony and in due course you can live to regret this.
How would this happen? Open Mating is always going to throw up diversity even with controling or trying to control what queen's mate with.
Do you have any open mated queen's?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you have any open mated queen's?

I’m sure all of them are as are yours and mine and most beekeepers here.
Rather than pushing bees to their limit doesn’t it make sense to go for a bee that can do what you want more easily?

 

[Curly green finger's]

I’m sure all of them are as are yours and mine and most beekeepers here.
Rather than pushing bees to their limit doesn’t it make sense to go for a bee that can do what you want more easily?

Yes it is, you will really only get that with local bees or bees that are reared in a similar topigraph.
Having sites where crops are going to be constantly planted with nectar rich Flora I will keep the bees that build up quickly and expand to maximise yields.
These are mainly hybrids.
Colonys on high ground are where the black bees do best and do perform how I want them to.
So I am selecting them.

I've caught a few swarms this year and have open mated local queen's from some of my blacks, they will be trialed over the next few years in both type of locations, some of these so far have done well it will be interesting to see how they winter and build up in spring.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well I’m only a bad hobby keeper with static hives. I keep all sorts of bees. The swarms are usually rubbish but stan insists on getting them through the winter. I’ve won with the latest though and split them with decent queens.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes it is, you will really only get that with local bees or bees that are reared in a similar topigraph.

Nonsense

 

[rolande]

The problem with pushing animals to their limit is that we don't actually know what their limits are till we break them. We can see this with humans driven to mental breakdowns by their high power jobs or living out their last years in pain as a result of heavy physical or repetitive work. Perhaps this may sound a bit anthropomorphic but I won't apologise for that.

I now think of each colony as an individual animal, which is likely to have different limits to the next one I come to. A rather simplistic view, I know.

I'm not suggesting we should aim to keep useless stock and I see lots of scope for selecting from what I perceive as being better colonies as well as being open about bringing queens in from outside sources but this is all a far cry from heavy micro management.

 

[GuyNir]

I think some are too fixated with bee type and local/non local.
some Q’s are rubbish (due to many reasons), some are average and some are exceptional. I’ve seen this here across different types and origin.

 

[pargyle]

DNA. Seeking to push a colony to the limit by artificially influencing their behaviour can actually weaken or stress a colony and in due course you can live to regret this.
How would this happen? Open Mating is always going to throw up diversity even with controling or trying to control what queen's mate with.
Do you have any open mated queen's?

Yes if course I do ... I have some I've reared from specific colonies, some swarm cells and some queens I've bought in ... they are all different but I don't seek ways to make the resultant colonies perform beyond their natural ability and this means I'm a light touch beekeeper...I am not constantly fiddling to get them to increase the crop they produce it forcing them to create new queens just to make increase. When they show signs of making increase I, obviously, take the opportunity.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes it is, you will really only get that with local bees or bees that are reared in a similar topigraph.

Nope again. I’ve had excellent colonies from queens reared all over the U.K. some with lineage from Germany and Denmark.
It doesn’t matter where they are reared but their genes matter
My local bees are not what I want.

 

[Worker bee]

So you have three or four broods?

I could have up to four broods yes. Depending on what I'm doing with the hive. If I don't split my hives two broods is definitely not enough space for the queen at peak laying. I could get away with three broods but if they ram nectar in during a flow I have to put another box on and checkerboard them then pull all the honey up top. If I have two capped broods worth and one uncapped brood I'll add another by checkerbording and keep going as long as they can cover the brood. Much the same as the rose hive method with nationals. Rather than put a complete box on I'll checkerboarded wait a few days then put the frames up top then it's a super or more laying space. Full frames of honey can be spun and replaced in main flows while keeping my queen unrestricted

 

[Worker bee]

How opening up a hive every 2-3 days, looking and taking down all Q cells (surely you need to knock off the bees for that), not considered interfering and by that setting them back?

No I need to checkerboard in a brood box and suppress the urge to swarm hence regular checks on certain hives not them all. A few on here have said that contiuesly knocking down cells won't work they will eventually swarm regardless. I've never had that happen. But maybe I handle it in a different way that's why. If I find cells I checkerboard find the queen cage her and shake off all the frames find every queen cell and destroy it. A few times plus checkerboard a box in works for me so it's not continuous. I've got a few hives building queen cells now and wouldn't dream of splitting them this late

 

[Worker bee]

I think the main concerns I have are twofold in this thread... Firstly, the bandying about of the notion of hybrid vigour...which frankly is a bit esoteric if indeed it has any real meaning or value in beekeeping .... without any understanding of the genetics.

Secondly, the idea that meddling with hives in order to 'push bees to the limit' has any credence at all.

I have little need for seeking bees with hybrid vigour... my bees perform to the level they are capable of as a colony... some perform better than others but the gene pool needs this genetic diversity as bees that may not fill five supers could well have valuable other traits in their DNA. Seeking to push a colony to the limit by artificially influencing their behaviour can actually weaken or stress a colony and in due course you can live to regret this.

But, thereagain ... I'm not a proper beekeeper !

When I said proper beekeeper that was banter but let's say you have bees in your loft and they have as much room as they like and excluding varroa mite problems how large would you say that hive would grow? Am I artificially driving them to the limit or just adding space and correcting them? Or my own mistake by not giving them enough room to big in with? Now I respect everyone's opinions and respect that everyone has a style of beekeeping and don't try to say any is wrong or try to undermine it. I know I have a lot to learn about it and my opinion is that if my bees are healthy keep producing and reward me with honey and splits I'm not doing bad. This year I lost a single swarm and had a few stolen. Can't be all that bad I doubled my hives and got a bumper crop of honey

 

[user 20297]

When I said proper beekeeper that was banter but let's say you have bees in your loft and they have as much room as they like and excluding varroa mite problems how large would you say that hive would grow? Am I artificially driving them to the limit or just adding space and correcting them?

You are driving them towards their limit because I doubt that a "wild" colony in the UK would ever be as productive as your managed hives. But everyone else is also pushing their bees; you're just taking it a bit further than most other people admit to doing.

Beekeeping isn't natural, even when practised by "natural" beekeepers. In the methods you've described you're showing a good understanding of what makes a colony "tick" and you're capitalising on their native instinct to your own benefit.....good beekeeping.

It seems like there's a sweet spot in the spectrum of possible approaches to beekeeping which feels right for most people. Each side of that you risk being an alleged "meddler" or a "haver". Like many people, I definitely started beekeeping more towards the "haver" end, but I'm gradually migrating towards the "meddler" side and read of your experiences with interest.

 

[Worker bee]

You are driving them towards their limit because I doubt that a "wild" colony in the UK would ever be as productive as your managed hives. But everyone else is also pushing their bees; you're just taking it a bit further than most other people admit to doing.

Beekeeping isn't natural, even when practised by "natural" beekeepers. In the methods you've described you're showing a good understanding of what makes a colony "tick" and you're capitalising on their native instinct to your own benefit.....good beekeeping.

It seems like there's a sweet spot in the spectrum of possible approaches to beekeeping which feels right for most people. Each side of that you risk being an alleged "meddler" or a "haver". Like many people, I definitely started beekeeping more towards the "haver" end, but I'm gradually migrating towards the "meddler" side and read of your experiences with interest.

Thanks its nice to get a positive reply once in a while on here with my style. I will admit that doing it the way I do is time consuming and not to most people's taste but all I'm trying to do is expand and produce as many hives and honey as I can as fast as I can. Pushing my bees takes the sting out of my wallet until I'm at the number of hives I want. I admit it's not a long term sustainable style of beekeeping. However it does get me to where I want to be faster and yes its damn hard going. Much easyer the easy way but I'm determined to expand and make it work. I want to be a comercial beekeeper

 

[Curly green finger's]

Fair play to you
As you have said not all and only some
funny isn't it how folk like to just jump on you straight away?
There's going to be some interesting box setups next year.

 

[Worker bee]

Fair play to you
As you have said not all and only some
funny isn't it how folk like to just jump on you straight away?
There's going to be some interesting box setups next year.

It sounds much more invasive and stressful than it is but if I actually could show it in action I think a lot of people would adapt it in the short term to expand because it really does work

 

[Worker bee]

It sounds much more invasive and stressful than it is but if I actually could show it in action I think a lot of people would adapt it in the short term to expand because it really does work

All they have to do is look up rose hive method and make it more practable. Don't add a box and Wang it on checkerboard it go back when drawn and do what I said. Don't knock it have a go then knock it. I've found if you just Wang a box on top or inbertween it just causes more problems in that tha barrier causes them to start drawing queen cells and the extra room isn't fast enough if you put it up top