Positioning of superseded cells

[North End Bees]

Can I suggest you watch one of Keith Delaplane's talks titled 'mutiny in the bee colony'

Thanks so much for the suggestion. Really fascinating talks.

So that would infer that allowing the bees to rear queens via a demarree (i.e supersedure impulse) would result in a lesser quality future colony than one raised after doing an artificial swarm.

Allowing the bees to choose which swarm cells are started, and then doing an AS, would result in genetically harder working workers if this hypothesis turns out to be valid.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So that would infer that allowing the bees to rear queens via a demarree (i.e supersedure impulse) would result in a lesser quality future colony than one raised after doing an artificial swarm.

That's just his opinion. There are others out there who say the opposite

 

[North End Bees]

That's just his opinion. There are others out there who say the opposite

Well not just his own opinion, although granted the research is ongoing.

Do you know of research to show that queens raised via demarree (or just under the supersedure impulse in general) raise better queens than those raised from a natural swarm? (Not including particularly swarmy bees in the equation.)

 

[rolande]

Thanks so much for the suggestion. Really fascinating talks.

So that would infer that allowing the bees to rear queens via a demarree (i.e supersedure impulse) would result in a lesser quality future colony than one raised after doing an artificial swarm.

Allowing the bees to choose which swarm cells are started, and then doing an AS, would result in genetically harder working workers if this hypothesis turns out to be valid.

Firstly, I think there's got to be a question of whether these special sub families even turn up in every colony, I would imagine that they don't.

With regard to the swarm cells I think it's simply a case of the Queen laying random eggs in them (I can't imagine she has any control over that) so presumably these sub families can appear in swarm cells too; simply a numbers game which shifts the odds against them, just like grafting must be.

But yes, it is interesting stuff to think about.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well not just his own opinion, although granted the research is ongoing.

It's all speculation at present but he's got some interesting ideas.

I'll think I'll watch and wait a while before coming to a conclusion

 

[rolande]

I'll think I'll watch and wait a while before coming to a conclusion

Very wise. Never pays to jump to conclusions.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The thing is even if his theory is right it’s still down to chance. Is the chance of the bees rearing a queen from a royal patriline larva begging to be turned into a queen higher than a queen laying an egg with the same lineage?
If these patrilines produce such inferior queens they can’t be present in every colony either
EDIT
Oooops. Rolande said more or less the same only more eloquently

 

[user 20297]

Thank you for that. Fascinating explanation for why we should be raising queens from swarm cells not supersedure cells. Absolutely nothing to do with larval nutrition but to do with who chooses the egg?..the queen or the workers? and how the patrilines of each differ.
From 50 minutes if anybody doesn't' feel like trawling through the rest.

At least it's the choice of bees, when we graft larvae to raise queens, the bees don't get a say in it.

 

[Ian123]

At least it's the choice of bees, when we graft larvae to raise queens, the bees don't get a say in it.

I’ll remember that next time they reject the lot

 

[Worker bee]

Best thing to do is pick the biggest queen cell stick it inbetween capped brood and knock the rest down. Rehouse or squash the old queen then you have a supersedure cell. Make sure they build no more in the next week. If they are swarm cells and they get capped you won't have the old queen for long because 9 times out of ten they will swarm at the first opportunity

 

[Worker bee]

Where do you live? How long is your flow season? I live on 60 degree latitude.

An expanding colony needs not frames but more boxes. When flow begins, hive more boxes. Join the small colonies that the foraging unit is big enough to store the nectar from fields.

Too expencive nucs if you split the colony before flow season. Such splits cannot bring honey and pay back the care of a year around.

4 langstroth boxes is too small hive before main flow eason. When our flow stops at the end on July, no hope that it begins any more. In August hives rear wintering bees.

Where do you live? How long is your flow season? I live on 60 degree latitude.

An expanding colony needs not frames but more boxes. When flow begins, hive more boxes. Join the small colonies that the foraging unit is big enough to store the nectar from fields.

Too expencive nucs if you split the colony before flow season. Such splits cannot bring honey and pay back the care of a year around.

4 langstroth boxes is too small hive before main flow eason. When our flow stops at the end on July, no hope that it begins any more. In August hives rear wintering bees.

Migratory beekeeping. wildflower, borage, beans, rape, and now heather and ivy. And anything else I can get them on although this year all they got from the early rape is pollen it rained for the whole month. I had to feed them in the middle of acres of rape when it finally stopped raining they were on the beans and lime because the rape was going to seed

 

[Worker bee]

Where do you live? How long is your flow season? I live on 60 degree latitude.

An expanding colony needs not frames but more boxes. When flow begins, hive more boxes. Join the small colonies that the foraging unit is big enough to store the nectar from fields.

Too expencive nucs if you split the colony before flow season. Such splits cannot bring honey and pay back the care of a year around.

4 langstroth boxes is too small hive before main flow eason. When our flow stops at the end on July, no hope that it begins any more. In August hives rear wintering bees.

By expanding I mean expanding your apiarys as in more hives, makes sence not to restrict the queen at all because more brood means more bees. With a hive selected for honey I'd expand inbetween main flows by feeding continuously. keeping a continuous flow your bees will become a huge hive you can make many splits from for expanding your apiary too. I will say that it's preferable to checkerboard frames rather than stick a box on top or inbetween. If you stick it on top they pull it slower and if you sandwich it it can cause the bees to start making queen cells

 

[Curly green finger's]

Migratory beekeeping. wildflower, borage, beans, rape, and now heather and ivy. And anything else I can get them on although this year all they got from the early rape is pollen it rained for the whole month. I had to feed them in the middle of acres of rape when it finally stopped raining they were on the beans and lime because the rape was going to seed

Ditto!

 

[Worker bee]

Ditto!

Propper beekeeping

 

[Worker bee]

Who indeed ? Nobody in their right mind - every time you crack open a hive it sets that colony back by days ... unless you inspect them from the field gate I suppose ?

How why? In my opinion that's not true. Your not taking anything from them by opening a hive. My bees get on with it regardless. How can opening a hive set it back days? Not being funny but they don't stop gathering nectar or pollen and the heat is back to normal within minutes. I don't see the logic at all. I hear it all the time but no logical explanation at all. Surly it's not as invasive as the old skep beekeeping? Some hives don't need it some do. And it's not continues its a matter of properly assessing and managing hives based on your findings. Some of my hives I don't inspect for up to two weeks. The thing people are misunderstanding is that beekeeping isn't on a schedule. Bees don't keep to any schedule and bees build and cap cells in days. My bees continously slip a queen cell past me I knock down. Keeping a schedule in beekeeping isnt productive for me at the moment. Every swarm I lose is a hive I don't have. When I get to the number of hives I want ill consider a schedule but until then every swarm I lose is a failure for not being dedicated and being lazy. Also for me splitting a hive too early because I've failed at keeping it producing is a failure. I like my queens to have at least two broods minimum to lay in. I currently have hives with two broods full of capped emerging at the start of the heather flow. Those hives can bring in a full brood of honey in a few days in good weather. My queens haven't even started to reduce laying. Your probably keeping totally different strains of bees to me. I'll send you a queen if you like you won't have it long. When I say two broods that's capped brood. I'm keeping the queen restricted to the two broods. Try to inspect my queen's at the rate you do and you won't have an apiary

 

[Erichalfbee]

How why? In my opinion that's not true. Your not taking anything from them by opening a hive. My bees get on with it regardless. How can opening a hive set it back days? Not being funny but they don't stop gathering nectar or pollen and the heat is back to normal within minutes. I don't see the logic at all. I hear it all the time but no logical explanation at all. Surly it's not as invasive as the old skep beekeeping? Some hives don't need it some do. And it's not continues its a matter of properly assessing and managing hives based on your findings. Some of my hives I don't inspect for up to two weeks. The thing people are misunderstanding is that beekeeping isn't on a schedule. Bees don't keep to any schedule and bees build and cap cells in days. My bees continously slip a queen cell past me I knock down. Keeping a schedule in beekeeping isnt productive for me at the moment. Every swarm I lose is a hive I don't have. When I get to the number of hives I want ill consider a schedule but until then every swarm I lose is a failure for not being dedicated and being lazy. Also for me splitting a hive too early because I've failed at keeping it producing is a failure. I like my queens to have at least two broods minimum to lay in. I currently have hives with two broods full of capped emerging at the start of the heather flow. Those hives can bring in a full brood of honey in a few days in good weather. My queens haven't even started to reduce laying. Your probably keeping totally different strains of bees to me. I'll send you a queen if you like you won't have it long. When I say two broods that's capped brood. I'm keeping the queen restricted to the two broods. Try to inspect my queen's at the rate you do and you won't have an apiary

It obviously works for you. If what you are doing is continually knocking down queen cells for swarm control you definitely have to be there every two days.
Not everybody wants huge colonies like that and not everybody wants that level of control.
For a lot of us it’s a hobby and about enjoying what bees do.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When I say two broods that's capped brood. I'm keeping the queen restricted to the two broods. Try to inspect my queen's at the rate you do and you won't have an apiary

So you have three or four broods?

 

[North End Bees]

It obviously works for you. If what you are doing is continually knocking down queen cells for swarm control you definitely have to be there every two days.

And if the queen cells are continuously knocked down it's not unknown for a colony to eventually just swarm anyway, leaving no QC at all.

 

[Erichalfbee]

And if the queen cells are continuously knocked down it's not unknown for a colony to eventually just swarm anyway, leaving no QC at all.

Probably not if you are going in every two days. I think they eventually give up

 

[rolande]

Probably not if you are going in every two days. I think they eventually give up

Just a case of waiting to see what gives up first, the bees or the keeper.