Poly hive help

[pargyle]

Yes, I use the rails provided in the new Swienties; and yes, I understood what JBG meant. That's also what I meant.

In the old Swienties which did not include rails and where the frame lugs rested on the polystyrene lug rests, the tops of the frames were slightly below the top of the boxes (as in BHS hives or Paynes hives). This helped to prevent the frame lugs being propolised to the box above.

In the new Swienties they have lowered the polystyrene lug rest to accommodate the plastic rails, but they did not lower it far enough to leave that small space above the frame top bars - so now the tops of the frames are level with the top of the box walls (as you've noticed).

I suppose I can follow your example and remove the rails - but that solution has its drawbacks as well as the bees can get squashed under the lugs despite one's best efforts to avoid it. We're left to choose between two bad options.

Kitta

Clear crownboards with a 6mm rim solved the problem on my Paynes polyhives .. gives me top bee space even with the metal runners in and you can see where the bees are when you slide/twist the crownboard back on in the proscribed manner.

 

[farbee]

Because the legs are splayed beyond the floor area of the hive it's rock solid so I have no fears on that account ... the Paynes poly hive has locating slots on the bottom of the floor and these locate on two lugs that I have made on top of the stand so that it can't move laterally.

As for a mouse ... I know how acrobatic they are but they really struggle with smooth vertical surfaces and they can only hang upside down on overhangs when there is something they can grip ...

With a bit of weathering they will not be quite so smooth unless you keep sanding or painting it

 

[Madge]

Clear crownboards with a 6mm rim solved the problem on my Paynes polyhives .. gives me top bee space even with the metal runners in and you can see where the bees are when you slide/twist the crownboard back on in the proscribed manner.

A clear crownboard between a brood box and a super is definitely proscribed!

 

[madasafish]

A clear crownboard between a brood box and a super is definitely proscribed!

Pedant mode :ON

Shirly you mean "prescibed"?



"Proscribed " ? Forbidden ! http://tinyurl.com/m6v5z8c

Pedant mode :OFF..

Sorry. Promise not to be a pedant again this year...

 

[Hivemaker.]

Shirly you mean "prescibed"?

I am sure MC meant proscibed.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Clear crownboards with a 6mm rim solved the problem on my Paynes polyhives .. gives me top bee space even with the metal runners in and you can see where the bees are when you slide/twist the crownboard back on in the proscribed manner.

My hives are bottom bee space but I too put a Perspex crown board on with a 6mm ply strip about 25mm wide right around the edge so I don't squash any bees putting it on, I also have a small square of it glued in the centre so it doesn't sag in the middle, this just sits on the top of the frames & keeps it all level.

 

[Swarm]

I am sure MC meant proscibed.

Crownboards between boxes are not going to help.

 

[Madge]

Thanks Hivemaker and Swarm. I guess Madasafish's pedant hat slipped over his eyes for a moment! It happens to us all.

 

[pargyle]

Crownboards between boxes are not going to help.

Totally agree ... I wasn't suggesting that crown boards BETWEEN boxes were PRESCRIBED ... but that a clear crown board at the top of the hive with a rim provides both bee space and the ability to stop bees being squashed.

Apparently, competition in Australia to find collective nouns came up with a PIDDLE OF PEDANTS !

 

[madasafish]

Thanks Hivemaker and Swarm. I guess Madasafish's pedant hat slipped over his eyes for a moment! It happens to us all.

Sorry about that..

I'll engage my brain in future.. or rather .. try to..

 

[itma]

…
In the old Swienties which did not include rails and where the frame lugs rested on the polystyrene lug rests, the tops of the frames were slightly below the top of the boxes (as in BHS hives or Paynes hives). This helped to prevent the frame lugs being propolised to the box above.

In the new Swienties they have lowered the polystyrene lug rest to accommodate the plastic rails, but they did not lower it far enough to leave that small space above the frame top bars - so now the tops of the frames are level with the top of the box walls (as you've noticed).

I suppose I can follow your example and remove the rails - but that solution has its drawbacks as well …

No, there is some confusion being created here.

Paynes national poly boxes are proper bottom beespace hives.
The top of the topbars is flush with the sides of the box.
Being "bottom beespace" the bottom of the Paynes boxes have a 'cutout' to provide beespace above the topbar-end lugs when the boxes are stacked. Just like a standard wooden national. Turn a Paynes box over and see it - its even there (absolutely correctly) on the feeder. The bottom of the box provides beespace above the whole length of the topbars.
My understanding has been that the BHS boxes were similarly correctly designed.

However, the new CWJ/Swienty boxes seemingly lack that 'cutout' and so do not provide proper (bottom) beespace above the topbar-end lugs. The obvious workaround to this is to make a simple conversion to top beespace by removing the 'rails' and resting the topbar lugs direct onto the ledge. This is far from perfect, but forum reports suggest that it is workable.


My personal opinion is that QXs should be framed, so that there is a beespace on both sides of the grille. (Whether the frame is positioned above or below the QX depends on whether the hive is top or bottom beespace.)
Similarly, my absolute preference with a bottom beespace hive is to have a beespace-providing frame round the (clear) coverboard.
In these two respects, I do feel that Paynes 'complete' hives are lacking.

 

[Madge]

... Paynes national poly boxes are proper bottom beespace hives. The top of the topbars is flush with the sides of the box. ...

Yes, you're right. I've just checked. Sorry - I think somebody said it had that little space at the top. The point is, out of all those poly hives (BHS, Paynes, MB, and Swienty old and new), only the new Swienty (with rails in place) has the propolising problem with the box above sitting on top of the lugs.

My understanding has been that the BHS boxes were similarly correctly designed.

They're correctly designed, but not with a cut-out. The tops of the frames are slightly below the top of the box.

The obvious workaround to this is ... by removing the 'rails'

Yes, thanks. Swarm already mentioned that.

My personal opinion is that QXs should be framed ...

I don't use queen excluders - so I'm disappointed with the new Swienties.

Kitta

 

[itma]

…
They're correctly designed, but not with a cut-out. The tops of the frames are slightly below the top of the box.

In order to provide a beespace above the lugs you must either have
- the frames a beespace below the top of the box ("top beespace")
or
- the frames level with the top of the box and this beespace provided by a rim or cutout (depending on how you describe such things) on the bottom of the box ("bottom beespace").

While some designs (and home assemblers) will arrange the topbars 1mm or so below the top of the box, this doesn't create the beespace. It merely ensures that beespace is maintained if/when there is a spot of prop between lug and rail.

I have only ever heard of one instance, (a tale of ITLD's) about some incompatible poly Langstroths from abroad, with beespace half at the top and half at the bottom.
Though I haven't handled BHS boxes (I have a roof and floor of theirs), my understanding is that they are national-standard bottom beespace, which implies that they either have the Swienty design fault or that they do have a cutout (or rim) on the bottom of the box to provide a full beespace above the lugs.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have only ever heard of one instance, (a tale of ITLD's) about some incompatible poly Langstroths from abroad, with beespace half at the top and half at the bottom.

Thought the MB poly hives also had this half and half spacing setup?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, they do.

 

[itma]

Thought the MB poly hives also had this half and half spacing setup?

Yes, they do.

Oh… Kay… so they must be wrong when they say on their website

Our hives are top bee space whereas the standard for a BS National is bottom bee space.

http://www.----------------.co.uk/products/british-national-hives/complete-hives
ht tp://www.modern beekeeping.co.uk/products/british-national-hives/complete-hives
// Edited with a link from which you must remove the spaces - isn't this a bit silly? (I thought it had been de-censored?)

 

[Swarm]

And I stick by what I said about paynes, none of mine are flush. Whether shallow or deep, all my top bars are a little below, about a mm ish but enough to be able to feel it. AFAIK the swienty nats have never had proper BBS.

 

[itma]

And I stick by what I said about paynes, none of mine are flush. Whether shallow or deep, all my top bars are a little below, about a mm ish but enough to be able to feel it. AFAIK the swienty nats have never had proper BBS.

My point (above) was that "about a mm" isn't a beespace and a beespace is what is needed to prevent propolising frames to the box above.
I specifically addressed the "about a mm below" point in my post! (And, with polys, it can depend on how hard you squash down the rails … )

Again as above, on the Paynes boxes the proper beespace (above the lugs) is provided on the underside of the box.

 

[Swarm]

My point (above) was that "about a mm" isn't a beespace and a beespace is what is needed to prevent propolising frames to the box above.
I specifically addressed the "about a mm below" point in my post! (And, with polys, it can depend on how hard you squash down the rails … )

Again as above, on the Paynes boxes the proper beespace (above the lugs) is provided on the underside of the box.

Agreed, if you look back you'll find that's what I originally posted, the recess and bee squashing. I certainly don't ram the rails in but still, every box has a slight gap above the top bars.
Mellifera Crofter has obviously run the older swienty succesfully as BBS, if only because the frames weren't propolised. Now, without this slight gap there is a propolising problem. Again, something that is a non issue running the swienty as TBS (or if using wooden supers, I'd imagine )

 

[Hivemaker.]

I specifically addressed the "about a mm below" point in my post! (And, with polys, it can depend on how hard you squash down the rails … )

And how accurate your frame manufacturer is making the frame top bars.