Poly hive help

[itma]

... Now, without this slight gap there is a propolising problem. …

Which I find directly contrary to my experience that bees propolise in places because there IS "a slight gap" … (and this one is much smaller than a beespace, by whatever definition.)

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh… Kay… so they must be wrong when they say on their website
http://www.----------------.co.uk/products/british-national-hives/complete-hives
ht tp://www.modern beekeeping.co.uk/products/british-national-hives/complete-hives
// Edited with a link from which you must remove the spaces - isn't this a bit silly? (I thought it had been de-censored?)

They are not wrong.
They used to say, when they first marketed the national hive (outfit was at that time run by Rooftops) that the boxes were a mix of bottom and top space. I can't speak for a BS Nat brood box (as I run 14 x 12s) but the supers have a top space of about 5 or 6mm and the frames are not flush with the bottom of the box....so a mix but the result is the same as top space.

 

[REDWOOD]

All my wooden hives I assembled with the frames just a gnats cockerel below the the top, I don't know why I do but it just seems common sense as wood expands and contracts

 

[Madge]

... While some designs (and home assemblers) will arrange the topbars 1mm or so below the top of the box, this doesn't create the beespace. It merely ensures that beespace is maintained if/when there is a spot of prop between lug and rail.

We know what a bee space is, Itma - but the point we're making is that that tiny space prevents the top bars from being propolised to the box above. If the frames in a BHS hive are ever propolised then I can only assume that that little space allows for an easy break. I speak from experience. I have absolutely no problem with the BHS hives of frames being pulled up with the top box as you lift it - but it is a huge problem with the new Swienties (those with rails in place).

Perhaps, ideally, it would help if the BHS boxes have lug recesses at the bottom - but their absence does not seem to affect management of the hive. I have not even noticed squashed bees on the lugs.

I have only ever heard of one instance, (a tale of ITLD's) about some incompatible poly Langstroths from abroad, with beespace half at the top and half at the bottom.

Yes - as others have already pointed out, they're MB hives. If you also use MB Langstroth frames which have thick lugs then that TBS is reduced even further and it becomes more like a BBS hive.

My point (above) was that "about a mm" isn't a beespace and a beespace is what is needed to prevent propolising frames to the box above.

No - see above.

 

[itma]

We know what a bee space is, Itma - but the point we're making is that that tiny space prevents the top bars from being propolised to the box above.

No.

Remembering that this discussion is being conducted in the beginners forum, I think it is entirely the wrong place to start promoting a new theory that a "tiny space" (about 1mm rather than an approx 7mm beespace) prevents propolisation.
A "tiny space" certainly doesn't prevent propolisation between frames not snugged tightly together.

 

[drstitson]

MB kit (LS) has bottom bee space. the thing people don't like with them is the raised lip.

 

[jonnybeegood]

You shouldn't lift the frames in the box below if they are propolised & attached to the frames above, if you twist the super before lifting. Just twisting it slightly, maybe 20/30 degrees will break the propolis & leave the frames below & not lift them.

 

[jonnybeegood]

Maliffera, what do you do with your BHS hives when feeding fondant? Do you put a thin layer under the CB or a block in an empty super below a CB? or some other way?

 

[Madge]

No.

Remembering that this discussion is being conducted in the beginners forum, I think it is entirely the wrong place to start promoting a new theory that a "tiny space" (about 1mm rather than an approx 7mm beespace) prevents propolisation.
A "tiny space" certainly doesn't prevent propolisation between frames not snugged tightly together.

I'm not 'promoting' anything. I replied to a beginner's (JBG's) remark about a specific space in a BHS hive. My reply was based on my experience of managing that hive. From your posts it seems that you don't own BHS hives, so you don't know.

 

[Madge]

You shouldn't lift the frames in the box below if they are propolised & attached to the frames above, if you twist the super before lifting. Just twisting it slightly, maybe 20/30 degrees will break the propolis & leave the frames below & not lift them.

In theory, Jonny - but try that with a Swienty. It doesn't work. I have to manoeuvre each frame free from the box above with a hive tool. The bees don't like that kerfuffle.

 

[Madge]

Maliffera, what do you do with your BHS hives when feeding fondant? Do you put a thin layer under the CB or a block in an empty super below a CB? or some other way?

My preferred way with all my poly hives is to create an inner crownboard with feeding holes to fit in an eke (or shallow). I open the hole that's above the cluster and put the fondant on top of the CB partially covering the hole, and then cover the fondant and hole with some sort of tub, and cover it all with insulation.

Very occasionally I put the fondant under the inner CB.

 

[Madge]

You shouldn't lift the frames in the box below if they are propolised & attached to the frames above ...

By the way, Jonny, you're now thinking of brace comb between frames between boxes. In the new Swienties we're talking about the frames getting propolised to the box above - not to the frames above.

 

[itma]

I'm not 'promoting' anything. I replied to a beginner's (JBG's) remark about a specific space in a BHS hive. My reply was based on my experience of managing that hive. From your posts it seems that you don't own BHS hives, so you don't know.

Yes - the discussion has veered between BHS and Swienty (old and new) and comments about the different things have been confused.
I have understood you to be saying that a 1mm gap on the old Swientys prevented propolisation. Which I find very hard to accept.




I have a BHS floor(which I'm not keen on, but have never seen any evidence or even possibility of the problem with which JBG started this thread) and their roof and have been considering buying some BHS supers (even at £25 vs Paynes sale £15ish).
Hence I am keen to learn whether or not this would be worthwhile.

... One fault is that although they are bottom bee space there is 4/5 mm gap above the frame to the top of each BB / supers. …

If this comment is true, (and its new to me, just like his entrance problem) it sounds as though the BHS boxes (perhaps like the Modern Beekeeping Langs) have a half top-beespace.
And, if it is true, that would make for an overlarge beespace (and thus brace comb) when a BHS box was used under a standard bottom-beespace box (wooden or Paynes) with the 'proper' bottom 'cut-out'. Similarly, putting a BHS box on top of any 'standard beespace' box sounds as though it provides no beespace over the lugs, inviting propolisation (the specific problem with the new Swientys).
I'm very keen that ALL my kit should be as inter-operable as possible, so, if this is true, I'll be getting my extra supers in Paynes sale.
Do the BHS boxes have the half top-beespace reported by JBG?

 

[Madge]

Yes - the discussion has veered between BHS and Swienty (old and new) and comments about the different things have been confused.
I have understood you to be saying that a 1mm gap on the old Swientys prevented propolisation. Which I find very hard to accept.

All the same issue, Itma. That little space, from my experience, helps to prevent the lower box being propolised to the top box above it and that includes the old Swienties. In my search for the ideal hive I now have one or two or more of all the polies - so I have experience of them all.

... and have been considering buying some BHS supers

Remember - there's no lug recess at the bottom of that box. Whatever you're using below that should then have that little space to prevent the two boxes sticking. Or perhaps you can cover the lugs with a strip of polythene. I think I might try that with the Swienties.

Originally Posted by jonnybeegood View Post
... One fault is that although they are bottom bee space there is 4/5 mm gap above the frame to the top of each BB / supers. …

If this comment is true, (and its new to me, just like his entrance problem) it sounds as though the BHS boxes (perhaps like the Modern Beekeeping Langs) have a half top-beespace.

Jonny means 4/5th of a mm - not 4 or 5 mm. So, no - it's still BBS with a little space above.

 

[jonnybeegood]

no Mellifera I do mean 4-5 mm, I actually took a photo & sent it to BHS to ask about it, their reply was it was like that to make room for spacers if used, but I couldn't see their reasoning as if you use Hoffman frames you don't use spacers so then what are you supposed to do? the photo I took showed a £1 coin lying on top of the frames close to the side of the box to show how big the gap was, there was still 1 - 2 mm above the £1 coin. My super frames were being propolised to the BB frames, I am expecting a lot of scraping of frames come spring when I next open them. I started machining the top off my supers with a bench saw before assembling them to remove this extra width which I shouldn't have to do. BHS said they hadn't had any other complaints about this which I was surprised about. I was thinking it could be resolved with deeper slides the frames sit on but then that would increase the bee space on the bottom.

 

[Madge]

no Mellifera I do mean 4-5 mm, I actually took a photo & sent it to BHS to ask about it, their reply was it was like that to make room for spacers if used ...

Oh blimey! So you must have felt a bit clueless as to what this discussion was about. But you did say 'above' though - so no wonder we thought you were talking about that 'gnats cockerel' of space (as Redwood called it) above the frames.

That extra space to the side of the frames is not a design fault either. It allows you flexibility. Fill it with a dummy board. When you do your inspections, remove the dummy first, then move the first frame over to where the dummy was, and continue like that. At the end you place the dummy at the opposite end of the rail. That way no frame needs to leave the hive.

My super frames were being propolised to the BB frames, I am expecting a lot of scraping of frames come spring when I next open them. I started machining the top off my supers with a bench saw before assembling them to remove this extra width which I shouldn't have to do.

I can't see how your super *frames* could have been propolised to the brood frames ... Again, you probably mean brace comb. I don't have that problem.

Why are you machining off the tops of your supers? (!). I'm mystified.
Kitta

 

[jonnybeegood]

Sorry,Durr! I do mean brace comb not propolis. With regard to the machining, as i say there is too much clearance from the top of the frames to the top of the BB is 4-5mm, with a super above, being bottom bee space, there will be a gap from the bottom of the super frames, to the top of the BB frames of about 15 mm, too much is it not? Is that not why they are buildjng brace comb? If i can work out how to put pics on here i will post some. I am wondering if it could be the frames at fault as the ones i got were rubbish & they now have a new supplier, maybe its that the top bar of the frames are too thin? I will check next year when i get some more frames.

 

[Madge]

... I started machining the top off my supers ...

... as i say there is too much clearance from the top of the frames to the top of the BB is 4-5mm, with a super above, being bottom bee space, there will be a gap from the bottom of the super frames, to the top of the BB frames of about 15 mm ...

I still can't see why you need to machine down the tops of the supers.

With all that space above the brood frames I wonder if you have the rails in place? Please publish a photo if you can.

Kitta

 

[jonnybeegood]

yes, rails in place, I will sort a photo.

 

[Hivemaker.]

yes, rails in place, I will sort a photo.

If the frames are the correct dimensions, and you have 10mm space under the frames, and 5mm above the frames, then the boxes are too deep, that is how i understand what you are saying, yes.