Pollination contracts

[elainemary]

This is all v interesting. We’re having the same debate currently in our association. Some believe Nucs should be more or less free to support / attract beginners “they’re just the by products of swarm control”. Others (me) believe they should be produced to a ‘standard’ (quality queen from good stock, conforming to Nuc guidelines re BIAS, stores, pollen, frames in good Nic, no disease etc). But this takes effort and has an impact on the beekeepers producing re reduced honey from donating / breeder colonies, plus time and effort, so should be chargeable. Not necessarily at commercial rates but a fair price for the effort. Make it too cheap and it gives the wrong message to beginners ‘easy come, easy go’. Let’s face it there is generally not a shortage of beekeepers or honeybees in most regions.
My advice to beginners who’s main motivation is to save the planet, is plant more forage for pollinators,if you want to make a difference.

 

[rolande]

Mentorship should be a chargeable service - discuss

why shouldn’t someone make a living out of a mentorship service ? Supply and demand would suggest it would probably be very popular

I'm not over bothered what others do but I reckon that most of the beekeepers I've met over the years would have to seriously up their game to be worth paying for instruction.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ll set the cat amongst the pigeons

for as far back as I can remember having started keeping bees as a youngster, BV, I recall the fervour at the local meeting in Stroud at the time about how swarms were free and nucs should be charged for.
Fast forward and two associations I know of now charge the collector of the swarm £20/£40 to be given the details and the funds ‘donated’ to the branch for ‘coordinating’ or some such *ull*hit.
And then a demand that beekeepers shouldn’t ‘profit’ from selling Nucs/bees to others and fixed price .... which in itself by virtue of the collusion is completely illegal and price fixing, I really struggle to understand the mentality of some beekeepers who think the world owes them a living and they should be given bees for tuppence’ha’penny - to replenish their one or two hives that have died out ‘in mysterious circumstances yet again’ or swarmed or absconded (delete as appropriate)

to which I am happy to justify £200+ for a nuc.
frames, foundation, feed, time, and then the queen which has probably been hand reared and possibly a daughter from an AI proven breeder at some cost - why on earth shouldn’t a decent nuc be chargeable ?
To the claim of ‘ongoing’ support ?? Are people in the real world ? The big bee suppliers don’t give ‘ongoing support’ indeed one quoted to me half the bees they supply to beginners die every year because of poor management or training.

It is training that is at fault here - or rather lack of - and people’s desire to circumvent the training available in branches - and let’s face it - too many new beekeepers for the available mentors to cope with.

Mentorship should be a chargeable service - discuss

why shouldn’t someone make a living out of a mentorship service ? Supply and demand would suggest it would probably be very popular

Especially with the rise of zoom

I might have strayed a little off topic here - give away surplus swarms by all means but then again don’t be surprised if they too struggle in the wrong hands !
KR

S

Would there be a qualified mentorship qualification or could anybody charge for any type of mentorship?
I have heard of some appalling advice being proffered to beginners

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would there be a qualified mentorship qualification

And who would govern/oversee that? at the moment we have no body capable of doing so effectively and the only 'qualifications' floating around seem to be won by the collecting of greenshield stamps.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Would there be a qualified mentorship qualification or could anybody charge for any type of mentorship?
I have heard of some appalling advice being proffered to beginners

Difficult to answer that Dani. I'm not in favour of low level "qualifications" which are frequently a money source for training organisations. But on the other hand I've met Beekeepers of many years in the game who are regarded as experts but at the end of the day their ideas and practices belong in the dark ages.
It's all too easy to persuade beginners to follow their faulty dogma whereas the beginners need to be taught to observe, analyse, think and act accordingly. RAB used to stress the importance of thinking! Sadly his good advice fell on a lot of deaf ears.
This year has been an eye opener in many respects as training courses started and were shut down after a couple of hours attendance. In one group oop North there were a few who actually started keeping bees via swarms. I dont know what went wrong but they didn't seem to have any mentoring so turned to each other for advice. At a late stage I detected a complete misapprehension about queen cells. No matter what or how many, the beginners told each other any cells they found were supercedure cells. The inevitable result happened. Hopefully next year will be one where (Free) mentoring can take place.

 

[Apple]

Seems to be a Curate's egg.... some local BKAs seem to have a cohort of experienced beekeepers able to teach.
Others have not.
Anyone can teach beekeeping at most colleges across the land....
The old saying if you can't do... teach ..... and if you can't teach ... teach teachers ! comes to mind.


I have had some very good teachers.... Me???? I just demonstrate!

Nadelik Lowen

 

[Somerford]

Would there be a qualified mentorship qualification or could anybody charge for any type of mentorship?
I have heard of some appalling advice being proffered to beginners

I don’t believe one exists. But 5 years experience with all the certificates and 3 hives just shows you’re good at sitting exams it doesn’t prove you’re a coach or able to apply the knowledge

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I don’t believe one exists. But 5 years experience with all the certificates and 3 hives just shows you’re good at sitting exams it doesn’t prove you’re a coach or able to apply the knowledge

Just as an aside there are recognised practical trainer/assessor qualifications which aim to ensure information is conveyed in a thorough manner and that the trainee has understood the content. This applies over a wide range of topics such as car spraying, electrical installation, maintenance, plumbing, hairdressing and a host of others. The trainer/assessor is required to hold at least the level of competence he/she is delivering.
This training is normally done by commercial organisations who naturally expect to make a profit. The problem comes when new statutory requirements are thought up by politicians and desk jockeys. Suddenly it's more important to have a piece of paper than it is to do the job correctly. For example, despite the basic laws of physics being unchanged wiring regulations are updated with a monotonous regularity and new textbooks plus upgraded qualifications are a must have. Of course this comes at a cost!
You can have years of study and experience but unless you spend a grand or two you can't be a tradesman

 

[North End Bees]

5 years experience with all the certificates and 3 hives just shows you’re good at sitting exams it doesn’t prove you’re a coach or able to apply the knowledge

That's very true. However you can also have fantastic beekeepers who are rubbish at teaching, i.e they can apply the knowledge to their own practice but can't convey it.

 

[ericbeaumont]

That's very true. However you can also have fantastic beekeepers who are rubbish at teaching, i.e they can apply the knowledge to their own practice but can't convey it.

Another valid point.

At our BKA we're blessed with a team of five who are not only very able and experienced but who can communicate easily, adapt teaching methods to suit the all-sorts, and do so with patient good humour.

Main skill of an effective trainer is to edit information that lies in the head: no-one needs to know the inner workings of a bee or the history of queen excluders to manipulate a colony effectively, so we get them into hives within thirty minutes on the first day (and will never again teach disease in a damp hall in January) and keep theory to an effective minimum.

We make sure to delete the idea that there's only one way to solve a job, and we don't interrupt other tutors. Some of the stories I've heard about training courses left me staggered - trainers bickering away in front of beginners, don't do it her way, do it this way - and we've dragged ours out of the past by making the learning (mostly) fun.

Training certificate? As Somerford (sort of) said: not worth the paper.

 

[pargyle]

Well, there's a couple of issues here:

The first, if we roll the thread back a few posts, is the practice of selling or giving nucs to total beginners without any determination that they have even the most basic set of skills or knowledge of beekeeping. My view is that this is irresponsible and whilst we all have to start somewhere it is unfair simply to dump an unknown colony of bees (whether for financial gain or philanthropic kudos) onto a total novice without any comcern about what follows. As an analogy most good dog breeders these days follow the kennel club guidelines and they determine what sort of home the dog is going to before they sell a dog and furthermore they commit to taking the dog back if it does not meet the standards they purport to be selling and they offer a follow up advice service where there is a need for it. We could, as responsible beekeepers, take a leaf out of this book. (and I accept that there are some really bad dog breeders who care only for the cash they can generate from selling dogs ...)

The second is the quality of training available to new beekeepers .. most associations offer relatively inexpensive training courses for beginners ... there is no standard for these or a set syllabus. They vary immensely in terms of quality of delivery and content. I've seen course materials where the control of varroa was added in as an afterthought in a course that was clearly written in the dark ages and perpetuated by trainers who also were only marginally out of the dark ages. Without a laid down standard and syllabus the courses (and any subsequent mentorship) is wholly at the discretion of those providing the course.

There is no guarantee that paying lots of money for a course is going to provide any better training - again, I've heard of one weekend course (provided by a self promoted 'expert' beekeeper) that cost hundreds of pounds that barely covered the basics and the 'lessons' were just a cobbled together series of photocopied handouts and the course didn't even include any real hands on experience with a hive.

I suppose some training is better than no training but ... considering that the BBKA have in their primary objectives 'training and awareness' one does wonder why there is not more consideration given to the provision of a standard, up to date, syllabus and a standard set of visual content to go with it that could be used - particularly by associations - to provide some consistency in terms of knowledge passed on and course delivery.

Of course ... I live in a dream not the real world ... and it will never happen.

 

[Antipodes]

Another valid point.

At our BKA we're blessed with a team of five who are not only very able and experienced but who can communicate easily, adapt teaching methods to suit the all-sorts, and do so with patient good humour.

Main skill of an effective trainer is to edit information that lies in the head: no-one needs to know the inner workings of a bee or the history of queen excluders to manipulate a colony effectively, so we get them into hives within thirty minutes on the first day (and will never again teach disease in a damp hall in January) and keep theory to an effective minimum.

We make sure to delete the idea that there's only one way to solve a job, and we don't interrupt other tutors. Some of the stories I've heard about training courses left me staggered - trainers bickering away in front of beginners, don't do it her way, do it this way - and we've dragged ours out of the past by making the learning (mostly) fun.

Training certificate? As Somerford (sort of) said: not worth the paper.

Agree, you will usually get arguments, unhappy differences and bickering if you have more than one trainer giving training at the same time. Good idea not to interrupt other tutors too...as you do.