Playing the Waiting Game

[beeno]

Hi all,
Winter has arrived with a vengeange for us newbies who have not insulated our hives to any or a great extent in the belief that this is the right thing to do according to many experienced beeks. The insulation goes on in February to help the bees with early spring build-up once fresh pollen is available, so we are told.
I must admit, that rightly or wrongly, I feel that I am playing a waiting game in every cold snap to see if my hives survive despite my knowledge of the arguments for and against insulation. If I had insulated, then I probably would not feel this Angst, but this is not a valid reason for doing it in my opinion. However, this is my first wintering of bees, so with more year's of experience perhaps I will feel differently.
In the meantime, I can see that three of my colonies are alive by way of the thawing spot on the tin roofs above the cluster! Not today though as there is a 10cm covering of snow on them.
Put my ear to the hives and there is a low content hum. Have put the inspection trays in temporarily, because of the cold weather. Found some spots of syrup on the inspection board under the PH. No cappings so is this from the fondant? Thought it interesting that in a show of hands at our apiary meeting less than 3% had insulated their hives. Whilst someone had friends in London wrapping theirs in fleeces. Good recipe for attracting vermin?
The snow keeps falling and its very beautiful sceen. Best wishes for everyones bees overwintering successfully.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Surely it's easy to go put a super on each crown board and fill it with Kingspan?
No disturbance to the bees at all.

 

[ellypatt]

What are the arguments against insulating? (just curious!)

 

[Erichalfbee]

No sensible ones

 

[beeno]

Surely it's easy to go put a super on each crown board and fill it with Kingspan?
No disturbance to the bees at all.

Yes, but that is not the point if you are in no insulation camp?

 

[beeno]

What are the arguments against insulating? (just curious!)

Hi Elly,
OA treatment is based on achieving a brood break and you are less likely to do so in the UK if you have insulated your hive. People on this forum have stated that some hives have brood all the year round which renders OA treatment less effective. Don't know if I remember figures correctly 70% of varroa in brood? However, the practice of not insulating existed in times before varroa and is based on bees consuming less stores when properly clustered in cold weather. I guess if you are a commercial beek you want to feed as little as poss. and don't want syrup in your honey. Money and workload. I am sure a proper beek will come along and give you chapter and verse shortly.

 

[oliver90owner]

in the belief that this is the right thing to do according to many experienced beeks.

Should have listened to the many that do!

The thawed patch on the roof is a clear indication of heat loss; a simple insulating sheet over the crownboard (as ericalfbee) is often all that is reequired. Not quite sure how many times we need to bang on about the financial pay-back - the sheet might cost far less than a bag of sugar. Your bag of sugar is now 'melting' the snow on the roof of your hive (and heat loss continues 24/7).

Your local BKA likely has mostly timber hives, not polystyrene. Really tough on the statistics when you think about it. Two hive owners are more likely to have two timber hives and their votes might well exceed the one vote from the multiple hive poly commercial beek! Listen to ITLD for instance; one vote for polystyrene, but two thousand hives (not all poly, but he does know the benefits).

Strong colonies with adequate stores will survive OK. They will simply use stores up much more quickly. Another story for weaker/smaller colonies which would definitely benefit from insulation or a smaller cavern. Of course, the risk of isolation starvation increases if the bees need to move to a new area of stores in the box, due to completely exhausting one area within a very cold period.

Inspection trays are a red herring unless in very severe weather as the bees can cluster where it is warmer - clearly better with an extra deep box over the deep ones, but that is another choice which perhaps should have been considered (wintered on a brood and a super is about the same as a single 14 X 12 brood).

Your bees would likely benefit from 'under insulation' only when the brood nest needs to extend close to the bottom of the hive?

Less than 3% does not necessarily include effective covering of crown boards, practised by lots of beeks as the norm all the year round - just as I do. Nor do I insulate my polyhives! See the problem of a simple poll?

 

[Pete D]

as RAB said that thawed patch on your roof is not a good sign.
Its heat loss and heat comes from fuel.
If it was your house you would think differently. Yes we could like the bees live without the insulation, but why would you. You would eat more, be more lethargic, have low morale and probably be narky every time there was a draught or someone pinched your warm bit of duvet.

My Cedar 14x12s have mesh floors open, no entrance blocks, fondant on the top of the frames and loft insulation stuffed in an old pillow case pushed down snug into the super (eke) to insulate the top, the bit where they are clustered.
I am only a beginner too but this worked for me last year.
I would be a poly man if I had known what I know now and hadnt bought so much wood at the start.
I do have 1 poly which is empty but it will be full later this year.
I would insulate.
They will be alright without if all the other 'stars' are aligned.......... stores, varroa, health, number of bees etc
Not so much drama in the waiting game if the result is loaded in your favour

Pete D

 

[thorn]

I've googled kingspan (I've only ever heard of it on this forum). They do a number of insulation products. I'd feel a bit of a fool walking into a builder's merchant asking for some kingspan to insulate my hives. What exactly should I look for, and what sort of size/quantity does it come in?

 

[oliver90owner]

What are the arguments against insulating? (just curious!)

'They don't need it' is the only justification?

Brood break is a function of outside temperature and I doubt if it has much bearing on either timber or poly hives. The temperature at floor level will be approximately the same for either, as the entrance will generally be at that level. OMFs make little difference either, IMO.

However, the practice of not insulating existed in times before varroa and is based on bees consuming less stores when properly clustered in cold weather.

Really? Just not true. Videos from fims made 80 years ago show quilts and newspaper insulation. Sawdust,, wood shavings, etc; WBC hives, Warres, twin walled boxes all examples.

Work out the stores requirement for your heating of the hive roof! The cluster maintains the same 'outer skin' temperature, whether very cold or not so cold. To an extent the surface area of the cluster increases disproportionately with increase in size, but remember it is only really the 'footprint' which will affect it most. Certainly not any directly proportionate effects, so certainly not able to be modelled by the average beek.

Brooding will often be on-going throughout the winter, whether uninsulated or not. See post #7 on this thread: http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21932

Maybe you have learned something today?

 

[Hivemaker.]

What exactly should I look for,

Kingspan. various sizes.

Google kingspan, there are hundreds of pages about it.

http://www.kingspaninsulation.com/

 

[MuswellMetro]

What are the arguments against insulating? (just curious!)

wedmore 1947 book of Ventilation of Hives, prior to 1947 most beekeepers insulated with quilts ( pillows/sacks/straw)

The concept was that a beehive should be like a well ventilated 1940's house and the moisture should be vented via the top of the hive like chimney in a 1940 house and away from the hive therebye the moisture doesn't condense on the walls , a bit like moisture would condense on bedroom windows and freaze in winiter in a 1940s

That was wedmores logic and Beekeepers in the 1950s followed his advise....it an etiher or situation, you either sleap with your bedroom window open or your bedromm winder shut

 

[oliver90owner]

Any insulation, even the expensive sheets from Th*rne will do.

Clearly sheet insulation is most convenient, but insulation of all sorts has been used over the years.

Personally, most of my hive roof insulation is cheaper EPS - expanded plystyrene sheet - as commonly used for insulating under screed floors and within cavity walls.

 

[madasafish]

Anyone who tells Canadian beekeepers that insulation is not needed would be regarded as an imbecile.

(They insulate their hives and wrap them in insulation - often using straw bales or plastic wraps similar to boiler insulation.).

Non insulation = no bees...

 

[Pete D]

How long before we discuss the insulating qualities of cow dung !

Pete D

 

[thorn]

Kingspan. various sizes.

Google kingspan, there are hundreds of pages about it.

http://www.kingspaninsulation.com/

That's the problem. How do I narrow down what I need so that I can walk in and ask for the right thing? What to you all use?

 

[Finman]

I feel that I am playing a waiting game in every cold snap to see if my hives survive despite my knowledge of the arguments for and against insulation.


this is my first wintering of bees, so with more year's of experience perhaps I will feel differently.

Best wishes for everyones bees overwintering successfully.

I have wintered bees 50 years in insulated boxes, like do all beekeepers here.

We have now a cold snap here - 20C, and the district where Honeypaw company is with its 1000 hives, temp is -30C.

http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/tampere

.

.

 

[Suzi Q]

I went to my local Travis Perkins, and asked for a sheet of insulation board, and was sold a 50mm sheet of Xtratherm. Its all the same stuff, celotex, xtratherm, kingspan.

 

[Suzi Q]

Finman, if I read the map correctly, interesting that the further north the warmer the temperature, +1. Is that the effect of the gulf stream?

 

[moor141]

I went to my local Travis Perkins, and asked for a sheet of insulation board, and was sold a 50mm sheet of Xtratherm. Its the all the same stuff, celotex, xtratherm, kingspan.

Yep all do the same job just different manufacturers.