Oxalic treatments, can they be mixed?

[birdsandbees]

Hi all,

I've been asked whether hives treated by Oxalic dribbling method can be treated again after a gap with vapourised Oxalic acid, I know you can't double treat with the dribble method but can with vapour, so Im after your opinions and advice please.

Sorry, just realised I've posted this in the wrong place but can't delete it now.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'd go for it - but why mix and match in future? as you now obviously have access to a vapouriser, from now on, I'd stick with that.

 

[peteinwilts]

some don't condone Oxalic, some as a routine others treat only when necessary.

There is a wildly known believe that Oxalic weakens the hive.. I sit on the fence with this one.
if so.... twice the oxalic, twice the risk (or twice the damage?).


I do not have stainless OMF's, so currently I am stuck with dribbling (with oxalic).

 

[mbc]

I'd go for it - but why mix and match in future? as you now obviously have access to a vapouriser, from now on, I'd stick with that.

this.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There is a wildly known believe that Oxalic weakens the hive..

How wild? I can see the issue with trickling - opening up the hive in the deep of winter to do the job - but haven't read any conclusive evidence of this (Finman is a great proponent of trickling multiple times! and doesn't see an issue) - or of any adverse effects of Vaping - maybe Hivemaker could comment as he has a few more hives than me

I do not have stainless OMF's, so currently I am stuck with dribbling (with oxalic).

Since when has stainless steel OMF's become a prerequisite of sublimation? surely if you trickle OA would come in contact with the mesh anyhow as it cascades through the hive. I know a few who have galv and have as yet not reported an issue

 

[Cussword]

How wild?

Since when has stainless steel OMF's become a prerequisite of sublimation? surely if you trickle OA would come in contact with the mesh anyhow as it cascades through the hive. I know a few who have galv and have as yet not reported an issue

I only started sublimating last year, but, my mesh is OK.

 

[peteinwilts]

How wild? I can see the issue with trickling - opening up the hive in the deep of winter to do the job - but haven't read any conclusive evidence of this (Finman is a great proponent of trickling multiple times! and doesn't see an issue) - or of any adverse effects of Vaping - maybe Hivemaker could comment as he has a few more hives than me

Since when has stainless steel OMF's become a prerequisite of sublimation? surely if you trickle OA would come in contact with the mesh anyhow as it cascades through the hive. I know a few who have galv and have as yet not reported an issue

I didn't know finny trickles multiple times. Is this due to him using heaters, thus extending his brood period?

As far as galv corroding, I am only quoting what has been stated on this forum in the past. I am very happy to hear more reports evidence from those that has been 'vaping' for a few years.

I like the idea of doing it myself, before being warned off because I use galv floors throughout...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a mixture of galv and epoxy mesh on mine - but as I've only just started vaping it's too early to tell - but in the end, the money I'll save by using this method, if in a few years time the floors look worse for wear - I'll just change the mesh. I would have thought that if there is a risk it will be mainly if you vape from under the floors. It's all surmise rather than fact at the moment anyway so I'm willing to take the risk.
More importantly it's the effect on the bees - no evidence that multiple vapings has any effect on colony strength I believe. I think there is some evidence that multiple trickling can have an effect on the queen's longevity which is why some advise not to repeat the dose often but, as I have said over the water they seem to splash it around with gay abandon

 

[Erichalfbee]

if in a few years time the floors look worse for wear - I'll just change the mesh.
Snap!

 

[Nige.Coll]

It does send the mesh rusty if you vaporise through the omf. Removes the galv.
If it's cold half the oa crystallises on the cold mesh too.
Varrox recommend a min of 4 degrees c.
Seems more efficient when done through the entrance in cold weather.

 

[Arfermo]

I only started sublimating last year, but, my mesh is OK.

I've never done it any other way in all the years I have sublimated oxalic and all my OMF's show no sign whatsoever of any adverse effects. QED.

 

[birdsandbees]

I'd go for it - but why mix and match in future? as you now obviously have access to a vapouriser, from now on, I'd stick with that.

Thanks for your thoughts all, the reason for mixing is that I know someone who treated a couple of months ago with trickle method but as I have a vapouriser and they still have Veroa they have asked if I can treat with the vapour method for them, but then someone said you can't/shouldn't double treat.

I know that multiple sumblimination can be done but wasn't sure about mixed methods.

 

[fatshark]

How wild? I can see the issue with trickling - opening up the hive in the deep of winter to do the job - but haven't read any conclusive evidence of this (Finman is a great proponent of trickling multiple times! and doesn't see an issue) - or of any adverse effects of Vaping - maybe Hivemaker could comment as he has a few more hives than me

There's published data on trickled oxalic acid weakening hives - both recently - January this year in J. Api. Res. - from the Sussex group and years (10+) ago from Charriere & Imdorf (spelling might be a bit off on the second name?). The first listed was a single treatment on known broodless colonies. It was in comparison to sublimated or untreated, also broodless, so properly controlled. Many hives were tested. I don't have the paper to hand but recollect the colonies were 85% the strength of those sublimated.

Multiple treatments with sublimations have also been done ... I've used it three times for 3 x 5 days on a small number of colonies. No adverse effects ... unless you're a mite. If you look at the scientificbeekeeping website you'll find reference to a huge study - thousands of treatments I think - which included every week for the season in some, not all, cases.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There's published data on trickled oxalic acid weakening hives - both recently - January this year in J. Api. Res. - from the Sussex group and years (10+) ago from Charriere & Imdorf (spelling might be a bit off on the second name?).

Thanks FS I knew there was some out there somewhere (and TBH I'd forgotten about the latest from the Sussex mob) but I did say I hadn't read anything butthat's not surprising as the state of my eyes the last few years I get frustrated pretty quickly good news is, second eye being done in a few weeks, then a month later (touch wood) a nice new shiny pair of reading specs

 

[Brigsy]

So if one intends to sublimate in the Winter, is it unnecessary to do the other ' medical' treatments? Thymol/Maqs etc


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[jenkinsbrynmair]

So if one intends to sublimate in the Winter, is it unnecessary to do the other ' medical' treatments? Thymol/Maqs etc


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You should sublimate in the autumn when you would normally use thymol (three times five days apart to ensure you zap as many as possible as there could be brood) then, the same as with trickling you can do a midwinter one if you think necessary

 

[Brigsy]

Thank you.


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[Erichalfbee]

You should sublimate in the autumn when you would normally use thymol (three times five days apart to ensure you zap as many as possible as there could be brood) then, the same as with trickling you can do a midwinter one if you think necessary


Same here
Ideally you should treat when the colony needs it. That requires constant monitoring of the varroa load.
There is an excellent piece in scientific beekeeping about monitoring and when you should do it and how

 

[peteinwilts]

oxalic sublimation in Autumn? would this not kill off a generation of winter bees?

 

[Cussword]

No, sublimation will not kill the bees.

Unless, of course, a couple get into the "pan".
Not a very nice smell at all