Oxalic Treatment and Timing

[peteinwilts]

Colonies seem to collapse much more quickly now,with fewer varroa, than when varroa first arrived, the biggest problem being the viruses they vector like DWV CBPV ect. .

As you say, the knock on causes generally are the demise of bees, rather than the directly from varroa.
However, is it conceivable that the appearance of colonies that are collapsing quicker is due to the increase of use of the Internet that speeds up the transfer of information which ran in parallel with the increase of varroa in the UK?
A single hive that collapses, can be reported on the Internet immediately as it is discovered, and has the potential to be read by a huge number of people.
I presume in the 'old' days, only significant losses or major events were reported and published in magazines\newsletters?

I have read a few books from the 80's trying to understand the differences of managing bees before varroa, but have gleaned very little information other than the basics.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I am surprised by this, I would say the trend is the opposite of this where I live.

Going mainly from what i read on this forum and others, definitely more virus problems than at the start, and at the start one treatment a year was enough, in fact that is all i still do with the majority, bees need some varroa to be able to adapt, and for us to observe this, and breed from those that are coping better. But now it seems that many are treating in late summer/ early autumn, again mid winter, some are then doing either more treatments in spring, or shook swarms and then other IPM methods all summer.

 

[peteinwilts]

Going mainly from what i read on this forum and others, definitely more virus problems than at the start, and at the start one treatment a year was enough, in fact that is all i still do with the majority, bees need some varroa to be able to adapt, and for us to observe this, and breed from those that are coping better. But now it seems that many are treating in late summer/ early autumn, again mid winter, some are then doing either more treatments in spring, or shook swarms and then other IPM methods all summer.

Do you consider your Thymol syrup recipe a treatment, or are you only thinking of direct anti-varroa treatments? (the autumn gassing, or winter oxalic)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you consider your Thymol syrup recipe a treatment, or are you only thinking of direct anti-varroa treatments? (the autumn gassing, or winter oxalic)

Thymolised syrup is to safeguard against nosema, not varoa

 

[Hivemaker.]

Thymolised syrup is to safeguard against nosema, not varoa

That's right, and to prevent fermentation in feeders and in the combs when fed late in the season.

 

[peteinwilts]

I agree, and use it myself, but as you were refering to varroa resistance, could this 'safeguard' (not sure where the line between safeguard and treatment exists) not in itself be creating varroa resistance?

I am far from knocking it. Just theorising and thinking aloud?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Maybe, but no known resistance yet, and unlikely to be in the foreseeable future, it has something to do with the mode of action of the tyhmol on the mites, affecting them in multiple ways, unlike the pyrethroid treatments.
Time will tell.

 

[mbc]

Going mainly from what i read on this forum and others, definitely more virus problems than at the start, and at the start one treatment a year was enough, in fact that is all i still do with the majority, bees need some varroa to be able to adapt, and for us to observe this, and breed from those that are coping better. But now it seems that many are treating in late summer/ early autumn, again mid winter, some are then doing either more treatments in spring, or shook swarms and then other IPM methods all summer.

What did the thousands of collapsing colonies die of at the start ? I'd always assumed it was virus problems.
As to treatments, again my perspective is different to yours, I've seen the majority of beekeepers start by treating their bees with "hard" chemical treatments, bayvarol or apistan, (or not treat and lose their bees!), and progress to "softer" chemicals, thymol, formic and oxalic. The only beekeepers who treat multiple times round here are those who use oxalic as an extra mop up in the winter, or those who fiddle with hiveclean several times during the season (and its debatable whether hiveclean should be considered as treatment, more of an annoying tickle IMO) and they are in rthe minority, the majority round here that I'm aware of plumping for an autumn treatment with apiguard.
The domino effect of loads of colonies collapsing in an area over a short time scale that was often observed at the beginning of varroa infection has also abated round here. It could be that the bee (and varroa) population is relatively static with few imports and/or migrating beekeepers stirring the pot.

 

[Hivemaker.]

the majority round here that I'm aware of plumping for an autumn treatment with apiguard.

That is all that's needed, an effective autumn treatment.

 

[mbc]

That is all that's needed, an effective autumn treatment.

There are two schools of thought though, to keep varroa at the closest to none as possible, or to tolerate some as in :

, bees need some varroa to be able to adapt, and for us to observe this, and breed from those that are coping better.

The bravest bee breeders are going totally treatment free with the groups of colonies they've selected as possibles to breed from ( a la John Keffus), I know of one locally. I dont think I, or my bees, are quite ready for treatment free, I cant abide seeing them suffer, but any I've chosen as potential breeders have only had a minimal whiff of thymol for years now and they still thrive. Hopefully it wont be too long before I can make the jump to totally treatment free, it has to be the ultimate goal for all conscientious beekeepers IMO.
What I cannot understand is the thinking behind foregoing an autumn treatment and then dosing them with oxalic in the winter, its the worst of both worlds as far as I can see, allowing the winter bees to have a heavy mite and virus load and then killing the mites once they've done their damage.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The bravest bee breeders are going totally treatment free with the groups of colonies they've selected as possibles to breed from ( a la John Keffus),

Bond method, and also, soft bond method.

 

[peteinwilts]

One of the positive aspects of 'counters', is they demonstate that the Autumn treatment is not always so effective.

Some of the reasons could be (theoretically!):-

Treating too early - I regularly see people say they have harvested and are treating in mid-August. Particularly, where the population of apiary's is congregated and people are treating at different times, after treatment allows a lot of potential breeding season for varroa. I presume if the weather is warm, the treatment goes into a gaseous state faster, and treatment time is reduced (?)

Treating too late - I am guilty of this. Much of my favourite honey comes in September when the weather is right. so hold off as long as I dare. I am sure I have probably got it too late on occasion, which is why I like the belt and braces approach with oxalic.

Poor weather - too cool or windy will affect the results

Poor hive design - I am sure the gas will not fill all voids, and there will be some escapees. Treating in inspection season will keep aerating the hive, particularly over managed hives..

The product is faulty

Thymol based treatments are not 100% effective, and neither is Oxalic. using both assists in maximising the effectiveness.

I only deal with varroa in Summer if I have to... I want to try and avoid keeping bees that are permanently on medication.

 

[Hivemaker.]

That is all that's needed, an effective autumn treatment.

Treating too late - I am guilty of this. Much of my favourite honey comes in September when the weather is right. so hold off as long as I dare.
Poor weather - too cool or windy will affect the results

Poor hive design - I am sure the gas will not fill all voids, and there will be some escapees. Treating in inspection season will keep aerating the hive, particularly over managed hives..

Sublimation of oxalic covers that, for those that use it.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Off topic

How pleasant it is to have forum members discussing, in an adult way, a complex issue on which there are many different views without being "shouted down" by other members who disagree - no names, no pack drill!

Long may it continue.

Back on topic, my eight month's as a beekeeper has lead me down a route very similar to Hivemaker's. As soon as hived the swarm, in June, I gave them a low-tech icing sugar treatment (I had not read enough to know about other treatments) and a couple of weeks later did a HiveClean treatment. The colony expanded well and although there was no surplus honey, they filled a 14x12 brood chamber. I used HM's Thymol treatment in September and although I know from monitoring that there are still some mites in the hive, I will not be doing an Oxalic Acid treatment this winter.

There's a beekeeper down here in Cornwall who's trying to breed bees that are aggressive towards Varroa. They don't just groom them off - they chew them up and remove legs, antennae and dent the exo-skeleton. He checks their performance by carefully inspecting the monitoring board for evidence of "chewing" and breeds from the colonies that show this trait. I'm thinking of buying one of his queens this year. Without a small number of mites in the hive, the bees will not learn to defend themselves.

CVB

 

[user 6228]

...

There's a beekeeper down here in Cornwall who's trying to breed bees that are aggressive towards Varroa. They don't just groom them off - they chew them up and remove legs, antennae and dent the exo-skeleton. He checks their performance by carefully inspecting the monitoring board for evidence of "chewing" and breeds from the colonies that show this trait. I'm thinking of buying one of his queens this year. Without a small number of mites in the hive, the bees will not learn to defend themselves.

CVB

Bees can not only bite back but inject venom from their mandibles that is fatal to varroa. (its also toxic to any other bee they bite... so the man from vita says)

 

[Vramin]

Here are my pre- and post-oxalic mite drop counts, in case anyone's interested. The first number is the pre-treatment count total over 6 days (i.e. not the daily drop). The 2nd number is the total mite count during 4 weeks post-treatment. 3rd number is Beebase estimate of mite level.

0 / 11 / -
2 / 144 / 130
4 / 21 / 270
4 / 248 / 270
126 / 3302 / 8400

The Beebase estimate appears to be spot on for the 2nd & 4th colonies. I hope that the last colony doesn't still have 5000 mites lurking somewhere though!

 

[mbc]

Thats quite an achievement counting 3300 mites. I tend to be less precise if I'm counting, none, some, lots.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wasn't going to use Oxalic at all this winter. There were few mites through the year and no great drop with MAQS.
Since then only two hives showed any natural drop and the NBU calculator had 170 and 230 mites in these.
The other two smaller colonies had a significant brood break when the queens went off lay and were superceded after the autumn Tx.
I was still in two or more minds but in the end all the hives were treated on Jan 8th.

My 10 day drop is 2 and 5 in the smaller of the two and 15 and 29 in the others.

I haven't looked to see if there is brood which might explain the low drop or there may be few varroa in there.

If I get the same pattern again this year I won't treat.

 

[einsteinagogo]

mine was 3 / 326 / 5

first figure daily before OA, second figure after OA, last figure over 7 days.

When I used MAQS I did not get this drop rate after treatment. (in Sept).

 

[Hivemaker.]

When I used MAQS I did not get this drop rate after treatment. (in Sept).

Cool, and did you leave the mesh floor open.