Oxalic acid sublimation vs trickling

[Finman]

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My friend, 1500 owner, trickle hives at night in darkness. It is easy to do with head lamp, he says. He is busy. Our days are short and he does something else during day light.

 

[chipper]

I m with ITLD...and Finman....
Trickling does no observable harm....I use 4.5%...no attributable mortality...even to any Nucs overwintered....
In particularly mild winters have also done the trickling in darkness so as the bees are clustered....and find 0c to 5c the best temperature to operate at...
For me the health risk of inhaling vaporised oxalic acid is too great...

 

[REDWOOD]

No risk of inhaling fumes with the correct mask. You make your own decisions and what suits you and your operation. Both kill mites


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[Millet]

I m with ITLD...and Finman....
Trickling does no observable harm....I use 4.5%...no attributable mortality...even to any Nucs overwintered....
In particularly mild winters have also done the trickling in darkness so as the bees are clustered....and find 0c to 5c the best temperature to operate at...
For me the health risk of inhaling vaporised oxalic acid is too great...

Do you live in a tent in a field, if so you are safe, if you live in a house Carbon Monoxide is more dangerous than oxalic acid.

 

[birdsandbees]

I didn't want to use chemical strips on my bees and after a fair bit of research decided on Oxalic sublimination, I'd read that trickling is supposed to be done with warm syrup which is hard to achieve when your bees are in different apiaries and after reading many times that opening hives during winter is a definite no no, it only left one option for me. It's not quick but if like me you only have around ten colonies it's no big deal.
I have found it to be very effective and apart from the couple of bees that get cooked by climbing into the tray there's been no loss of numbers.
Also, I've had no issue with escaping vapour and a reasonably decent mask is more than sufficient with no real risk of breathing it in unless you shove your face right in the entrance.
I understand why those that have either large numbers of hives or hives that don't lend them to vaping use trickle but I'll happily keep with the method that suits me and my set up, I think that's the key thing that each person needs to consider.

 

[Finman]

I didn't want to use chemical strips on my bees and after a fair bit of research decided on Oxalic sublimination, I'd read that trickling is supposed to be done with warm syrup which is hard to achieve when your bees are in different apiaries and after reading many times that opening hives during winter is a definite no no, it only left one option for me..

You read, but tens of thousands of beekeepers have their hives in woods and they have treated their hives 15 years with tricKling . They have opened the hives and nothing bad has happened.

It is not a big problem to keep the syrup warm. But if you cant, you cant...
How 100% of others can?

Others cannot open the hive but others can. It was researched in Denmark 10 years ago, that 100% of beekeepers use trickling. How it is possible?


Britain has used all its energy during last 15 years to stop trickling. There are herd of vets and lawyers to trying to stop trickling. Now they have invented that you should buy German water £30/litre, that you can trickle without going to prison.

And a whole forum is needed to spread propaganda against trickling. But they are about 15 persons who spend their whole days to write rubbish here about varroa.
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[Finman]

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Before trickling was ivented, beeks pulled each comb out of the hive and sprayed onto each side 3% oxalic - water solution. I remember that British beekeepers did that over 10 years ago.

Some gove Christmas supper to hives and they were not afraid to open the hives. I have read all kind of stories in this forum.


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[fatshark]

I'd read that trickling is supposed to be done with warm syrup which is hard to achieve when your bees are in different apiaries.

Not if you buy a cheapo vacuum flask from a supermarket (~£3), fill with pre-warmed mix and use this to top up the container you trickle from ...

PS Label the flask well and DO NOT use it for your tea

 

[birdsandbees]

Not if you buy a cheapo vacuum flask from a supermarket (~£3), fill with pre-warmed mix and use this to top up the container you trickle from ...

PS Label the flask well and DO NOT use it for your tea

Good idea, I doubt many bother, the point I was making was that rather than end up in an argument with each other, (basically Finny) we've all got our own ideas and methods that suit our needs for treatment against Varroa mites, we that have commented all seem to agree that to treat is the preferred option over not treating, so aside from personal preferences on the application what's to argue about.
And to keep on saying 'that's what they used to do years ago' isn't really a good reason to follow it is it?
Should we all go back to keeping bees in Skeps or clay tubes?? After all that's what they used to do!

 

[Tom Bick]

Some years ago on this forum I asked a question, along the lines of why don't we sublimate more in this country and it must be less disturbance to the bees. I would say all of the replies were in favour favour of dribble and warning of the dangers and time required of sublimation.

Sublimation is the new kid on the block, especially on this forum. Both methods have disadvantages and advantages and both are good treatments, if they are needed.

I do worry with some advice on this forum where people are told to go out and gass the bees at what sometimes seems an alarming rate. I worry that one day someone will burn their lungs and end up disabled for the rest of their life, or worse.

 

[Finman]

(basically Finny) we've all got our own ideas and methods that suit our needs for treatment against Varroa mites, !

Listen now. Own ideas and methods!!!! And all those jokes which I can read daily in this forum....

European Varroa Group researched carefully best mite treatments 6 years.

All modern treatments are based on that work. It is a disaster if British 2-hive owners think that they have invented something.

Read from this, European group for integrated varroa control (2004)
Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finnland, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands and Sweden joined together to finance the project, some of them with amounts quite above their proportional share of the total.

Special thanks go to the French Beekeepers, who covered about 45% of the budget with money from the European Union’s Beekeeper Fund. In Italy apart from the beekeeper associations U.N.A. API also two bee science institutions made financial contributions to help the project. Although not a member of the European Union, Norway, on its own initiative, contributed a considerable amount.

Unfortunately, several countries never responded to our repeated requests for financial participation (Great Britain, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Spain).


.Anton Imdorf1 and Eva Rademacher2 European Working Group for Integrated Varroa Control 1 Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux, SwissBee Research Center, CH-3003 Bern 2 Freie Universität Berlin, Institut für Biologie/Neurobiologie, Königin-Luise-Strasse 28-30, DE-14159 Berlin

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes....read the work of many bee authors and you get lots of definitive positions given....most are opinion rather than fact.

The difference between using warm syrup and cold? Well maybe 5 mins maximum until whichever you use is at the same temperature anyway (after application). Perhaps they get mixed up with the need to warm the water before dissolving the oxalic....its much faster that way.

Opening hives in winter? Its not a complete no no. Its all about balance...sometimes the need to look is more important...sometimes the need to leave alone is more important. In general the best policy is to leave well alone......but what if all is not well? Opening in winter is a practice to be GENERALLY avoided but in most case will make little difference. Its of less detrimental effect than failing to deal with isolation, but should be done very briefly on the minimum of occasions. Plain simple inquisitiveness is not a good reason.

Inhalation of oxalic? Well on small to medium numbers this is a minimal risk but once the numbers get high its not so good. I have many friends in Europe who prefer to trickle, as once they have done thousands of treatments, no matter how good the gear is, several of them have described feeling quite ill. Cumulative exposure over large number appears to be the factor...each exposure is tiny and insignificant. FWIW they don't like sublimation in winter (not sure why) and thus need to do three quickfire treatments in summer.

The plain facts are that both methods work if the correct dosages and methods are used . Its up to the beekeeper to choose which they prefer, but 'vaping' has become very fashionable recently although I don't see much advantage to it. My opinion...........not a proven fact!

 

[birdsandbees]

[/QUOTE]The plain facts are that both methods work if the correct dosages and methods are used . Its up to the beekeeper to choose which they prefer, but 'vaping' has become very fashionable recently although I don't see much advantage to it. My opinion...........not a proven fact![/QUOTE]

Yep, I agree, it's up to the individual to decide what suits them best, and also agree with the exposure to any hazardous material, the more you use it the higher the accumulation risk but as I said for me with a relative handful of hives it's what suits me

'Unfortunately, several countries never responded to our repeated requests for financial participation (Great Britain, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Spain)'

I think you will find that the UK have contributed quite a lot of financial support to the EU since becoming a member actually, if the EU decide to use those contributions to bail out Euro banks instead then that's out of our control I'm afraid.

 

[Finman]

I think you will find that the UK have contributed quite a lot of financial support to the EU since becoming a member actually, if the EU decide to use those contributions to bail out Euro banks instead then that's out of our control I'm afraid.

Actually European Union did not gove any money to that project. I heard that afterwards. Each country must dig they pockets to pay tickets to meetings.
As you see, France payed the most.

But after 15 years, the results have accepted as standard in most countries. Like in Canada it took 10 years to accept free cost systems in official level.

UK is perhaps only country who wants that beekeepers pay themselves sick for varroa treatments.
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But I cannot believe that University of Sussex has been harneshed to black paint the trickling as one of the most succesfull method. But so it seems.
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[Beefriendly]

Something to add to the debate that may interest some is a paper published last month giving the results of trickling Oxalic acid solutions of different strengths on bees with brood.
It can be summed up by saying the higher doses killed more varroa and also more bees. But all doses killed mites.
Evaluation of Oxalic Acid Treatments against the Mite Varroa destructor and Secondary Effects on Honey Bees Apis mellifera
Link is https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5186740/

 

[enrico]

I have read this thread with interest. Never trickled, never vaporised, never noticed anything different with my hives and those that do. Autumn treatment seems to work for me. Not saying I never will but just that it ain't broke enough to mend it yet!

 

[nubie]

Having tried trickling , maqs , apilife etc and now the vaporiser for the first time ; converted to the vaporiser. Easy to use , easy on the bees and very effective on the mites.

 

[Finman]

Something to add to the debate that may interest some is a paper published last month giving the results of trickling Oxalic acid solutions of different strengths on bees with brood.
It can be summed up by saying the higher doses killed more varroa and also more bees. But all doses killed mites.
Evaluation of Oxalic Acid Treatments against the Mite Varroa destructor and Secondary Effects on Honey Bees Apis mellifera
Link is https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5186740/

Place is Egypt, and information is 15 y too Late

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[Beefriendly]

Place is Egypt, and information is 15 y too Late

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You know it can take for ever for peer reviewed papers to appear in print
I thought it was interesting because it was trickling with brood present, most studies that I've read are without brood.
You suggest it was performed 15 years ago? if you have any more information on that I'd be interested.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Place is Egypt, and information is 15 y too Late

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The note beside Fig. 2 suggests the work was done in northern Algeria in August/September 2012, unless you know different.

CVB