Overwintering on Brood and a Half

[Richard12]

Hi first time I have used this forum so I hope I haven't screwed up.

I am a little confused about the relative positions when overwinterin on Brood and a half. I currently have my brood box on the bottom with the super, containing mostly stores on the top. I would have thought that the bees would start at the bottom box and work their way up during Winter and early spring into the more concentrated area of honey and that would be the way to go.
However some people seem to suggest putting the super on the bottom and the brood box on top. Doesn't make any sense to me so can anyone enlighten me.

Richard

 

[drstitson]

different people advise different things.

but a super under soon will enable bees to take stores up as necessary before it gets too cold.

better to not have lots of "empty" space above the cluster for them to heat.

super below helps baffle away draughts.

and don't forget

NO QE overwinter ever ever ever.

 

[oliver90owner]

You seem enlightened enough. That is where the bees would put their stores - above the nest so it can more easily be protected (and bees tend to move upwards in most situations).

Some reckon they get an empty shallow in spring (if they can retrieve it before the queen gets going strongly) by putting it on the bottom at the end of the season when the bees can do nothing about moving it all up.

If you are truly overwintering as brood and a half , leave it where it is. If you are overwintering on a brood and a super you might want to follow those others and move it down.

I run the equivalent of a brood and a half but with the single 14 x 12 frame. My bees put the stores where they want them and I don't need to interfere.

Welcome to the forum, btw.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

as per rab - 14x12 provides optimal solution - think about it for next year.

1 box and 1 set of frames for inspections.
space for enough/optimal stores in 1 box for winter.

 

[Richard12]

Thank you

Thanks very much for your replies. It helps to understand the various theories to make your own mind up.
Regarding the brood box. I have a lot of National brood boxes (well it looks a lot to me when I look in the shed). So I am commited to use them for some time. I could experiment with a larger box perhaps next year.

Richard

 

[Eric knockalt]

Have just moved my national super below brood box was not fully capped so going to let them move the stores up when they are finished i will take it off to single box for the winter ,putting my double brood to single aswell do better for me on single bb through the winter treat themwell and keep em dry ,best of luck.

 

[oliver90owner]

I have a lot of National brood boxes (well it looks a lot to me...

It's not the boxes, it's the frames that are surplus! Each deep only needs an eke to convert it to the larger format. That is how nearly all my boxes are configured.

 

[drstitson]

as per rab - easy to add ekes to standard boxes until established on 14x12 format.

 

[meidel]

If converting your nationals to 14x12s you'll need 9cm high ekes - don't be fooled into buying feeder ekes, they're only 7cms or apiekes, even shorter!

 

[Eric knockalt]

I have a lot of National brood boxes (well it looks a lot to me...

It's not the boxes, it's the frames that are surplus! Each deep only needs an eke to convert it to the larger format. That is how nearly all my boxes are configured.

Going to try 2boxes like this next year ,will keep the double brood on others as they were the only hives that did not look like swarming or didnt swarm ,would the 14x12 box make any real difference in the swarming stakes though ?

 

[Andy Duff]

Double brood nationals are much simpler, no switching frame sizes, more common "format"

When you need to inspect double brood nationals take some lifting when the top box if full of stores (50-60 lbs ish).

We ran out of space in double brood this year and needed triple brood but as I keep saying it has been a very odd year

 

[oliver90owner]

We ran out of space in double brood this year and needed triple brood

I don't really think that any queen is going to consistently lay-up a full double deep brood. Yes, I allow her to lay in a shallow with my 14 x 12 boxes, but that allows me to leave some outside frames as stores. A PITA to remove them, even temporarily.

Double brood is around 100 000 cells for a National. 100% utilisation for laying would mean about 4000 eggs laid every day (assuming here a 25 day cycle of usage). So three boxes for only brood seems excessive to me (150 000cells).

Until a second box (brood or super is added, food and brood have to be in the one box, so utilisation for brooding is clearly somewhat less than 100% and congestion can easily occur, but with the second box, that problem should disappear, as I see it.

So to be honest, I'm not sure how a triple deep brood area can be 'a must' for anyone.

Please enlighten me how it really is a case of 'must need' the third box.

RAB

 

[itma]

...
Double brood nationals take some lifting when the top box if full of stores (50-60 lbs ish).
...

Doesn't really sound like much brood in that second box ...

 

[Andy Duff]

Doesn't really sound like much brood in that second box ...

It is the case here that the bees are bringing in masses of stores, the brood area is shrinking fast. A very experienced beek inspected our hives with me today and could not believe the amount of bees coming in, the amount of bees in the hives, the stores they have built up and the honey we have harvested, he confirmed my observations and agreed that he had never seen this so late in the season. Like i keep saying, it is a very odd year. We still have white bees from the HB, the Willow herb is in full bloom, there is heather on the moor a mile or so away and the ivy has just started to bloom. The advice I was given- swap out some deeps for the queen and put the supers back on to give them some room

 

[masterBK]

Double brood colonies I also find are less likely to make swarm preparations and more likely to replace the queen by supersedure than those on single Nationals. Swarm inspections are so quick and simple with doubles as you just hinge up the top box and look for queen cells on bottom bars of the frames.

I'm a great believer in the flexibility that a double brood system gives you in terms of management particularly using Demaree as a swarm prevention system and then using the bees in the top box as Q cell finishers for cells produced by a cell starter. Nukes can also be easily set up out of top boxes. Also double brood colonies ideal for use in Cloak board q rearing method. The only colonies I tend to run on singles are those I migrate to crops with.

If you run the doubles on a demaree system with sufficient supers in between then the top box doesn't tend to get filled with stores and then when all the bees have emerged simply swap it round with the bottom box remembering to transfer the queen into it.

 

[domino]

I'm a first year beak and I'm a little worried I've made a boob.

Two weeks ago I was put on my apigaurd (late I'm told) in my basic national hive.

It was bursting with bees so much they were building comb in the super I was using to hold the contact feeder: which I was about to take off.

I've got my bees on a plot where other people keep theirs. One of the guys watching suggested that I put a super with some frames on to give them some more space. As I only had about two frames of boord and the rest was stores.

Going to check them today and I've now got five frames of stores and four frame of brood. They also seem to be putting stores in the super which they are building out with comb.

My apigaurd won't finish until the end of September and I'm a little worried that they are now light on stores.

If I put them on 2:1 feed through October would that help them?

 

[oliver90owner]

Domino,

First, I might ask why the bees can access the feeder area. Thymol requires a high temperature to be most effective and your set-up seems to be aimed at reducing the efficacy of the treatment. IMO gaping holes in the crownboard are a real downer.

Same reasoning where brooding is concerned (may not be too much of a problem if there are a lot of bees) but cooling the hive, by allowing convection currents to remove heat from the hive, cannot be viewed as a good idea.

The hive is designed as a frame hive and as such the bees should be building comb in frames not wild comb.

My apigaurd won't finish until the end of September and I'm a little worried that they are now light on stores

Not quite understanding how, if there is only two frames of brood and the rest is/was stores?

You need to consider the bees actions. Feed and they will store it, even to the extent of compromising brooding space. What you need to take the colony through the winter is bees; feed can be arranged as a secondary item, but no bees would mean no colony in the spring, but loads of stores....

 

[domino]

Domino,

First, I might ask why the bees can access the feeder area. Thymol requires a high temperature to be most effective and your set-up seems to be aimed at reducing the efficacy of the treatment. IMO gaping holes in the crownboard are a real downer.

I was taking it off to close the hole on the crown board.

Same reasoning where brooding is concerned (may not be too much of a problem if there are a lot of bees) but cooling the hive, by allowing convection currents to remove heat from the hive, cannot be viewed as a good idea.

See above.

The hive is designed as a frame hive and as such the bees should be building comb in frames not wild comb.

As I said they were building wild comb in the super I was using to hold the contact feeder. Someone suggested to me to give them a super with frames in it because he thought they wanted more room.

My apigaurd won't finish until the end of September and I'm a little worried that they are now light on stores

Not quite understanding how, if there is only two frames of brood and the rest is/was stores?

You need to consider the bees actions. Feed and they will store it, even to the extent of compromising brooding space. What you need to take the colony through the winter is bees; feed can be arranged as a secondary item, but no bees would mean no colony in the spring, but loads of stores....

Before I added the super: 2/3 frames of brood, 8/9 frames of stores.
Two weeks after adding the super: 4/5 frames of brood, the rest stores.

From what you're saying that's a good thing.

 

[Finman]

.
Rickhard, you have 7 hives. You should know the answer.

But.......if you have brood and half in summer, it is too much space to over winter.

When starting wintering, brood must be down and stores up.

If you have douple brood, it is flexiple.
You may load into a box brood frames , 2 pollen frames and the rest food. Then feed.
Honey you ay remain next summer and spring, but don't put them hang ovar a colony.
It is not a right place to store honey frames.

Retrict first the hive to proper size. Then feed....and mites things....

.

 

[drstitson]

"It was bursting with bees so much they were building comb in the super I was using to hold the contact feeder"

as per rab - how were the bees getting into the super?

1. rab and i share the strong view that a crownboard is solid. a feeder board has hole(s). when feeding the feeder should cover the open hole so no bees routinely in the super.

2. ALL thymol treatments rely on vapour concentration within the hive. So minimal internal volume and minimal sources of ventilation/vapour loss are essential. open feeder board holes are a no-no.