Overwinter setup newbie help

[Edward.21]

Hello

I'm a newbie and I'm not sure what is recommended to do for the winter, I've been reading up and some people suggest matchsticks (for ventilation?) some suggest no insulation and some suggest completely insulating them and I'm at a bit of a loss.

I currently have 1 national and 1 ****** polynuc to overwinter. I'm thinking of putting some insulation on top of the crown board in the national and leaving the mesh floor open. on the poly i think I'll just put some insulation on the roof. I live in Somerset so it doesn't get to cold down here, do you think this will suffice?

Thanks.

 

[Finman]

.
Don't think about wintering yet. You have one month to get the hives to better dondition.

How much you have brood in hives now and how much stores?

You ought to get at least 5 frames of brood before winter feeding.

- When you have that bigger hive, does it have enough room for laying in brood box?
- Have you reduced allready size of hive
- have you give smaller ventilation to keep the hive warm for last brooding?

Close mesh floors.
Keep hives warm.
Keep small entrance (nuc needs only 2x2 cm.)

If your bigger hives has 7-8 brood frames, you may donate 2 frames of emerging brood to the nuc just now. So it will get more bees and is able to rear a good gang for winter.

You have perhaps 5 weeks time to ´final winter feeding. It is in practice 2 brood cycles.

After 3 or 4 weeks feed the first feeding box that hives can store and cap the food around brood area. Then after 5 weeks, - or what is the final date on your area,- you feed the hives full so much as they take in during 5 days.

 

[drstitson]

no matchsticks; top insulation (50-100mm of kingspan/celotex type stuff).

make sure they get a decent autumn feed (thymolated 2:1 syrup) and, if necessary mid-late winter feed a one off large chunk of fondant (4-6kg) on top of frames in an apiguard eke - don't faff about with 1/2 kilo chunks over feeder holes.

 

[sandysman]

no matchsticks; top insulation (50-100mm of kingspan/celotex type stuff).

make sure they get a decent autumn feed (thymolated 2:1 syrup) and, if necessary mid-late winter feed a one off large chunk of fondant (4-6kg) on top of frames in an apiguard eke - don't faff about with 1/2 kilo chunks over feeder holes.

I would however disagree for once with Finman in so much as I always leave the open mesh floor open I.e without the inspection board. I have always been taught that its damp that kills the bees off in the winter, not the cold. I know that some of the old timers who are still using solid floors will also be using matchsticks, (there are numerous threads about this on the forum) but for my money, follow drstitson advice but leave the floor out.
Andy

 

[user 6228]

...
. I have always been taught that its damp that kills the bees off in the winter, not the cold. ...

that is incorrect. It's the increased heat loss from being wet and cold that is deadly. Wet and warm is not deadly at all.
So concentrate on keeping the bees warm by insulation.

These old saws have come about because inadequate attempts at insulation do very little in reducing the heat losses so that being wet is still a significant additional burden.
Substantial insulation reduces the condensation around the bees and makes what condensation there is, not cause significant additional heat losses.

 

[sandysman]

I sense the yearly debate coming round again.
Andy

 

[user 6228]

I sense the yearly debate coming round again.
Andy

Did it ever go away

 

[Arfermo]

The September issue of Beecraft has a letter to the editor giving a personal view on Page 7 that advocates insulating hives. However, an article in the magazine by Margarte Cowley BSc says, alia inter, that "Where a colony is located in the UK, its exposure to cold winds, the race of the bees and colony size are all variables that affect the estimates" as to how much stored honey is needed for a colony. It continues "For example, more food is needed in south than the north because the bees will be more active and dipping into their stored food more often".

For that reason, insulation of hives needs to be carefully weighed up. I'm in the West Midlands and in a rural frost pocket to some degree and have never lost a colony due to the lack of insulation and I never insulate except when packing out a 5 frame nuc. I did lose one colony from starvation come spring 2 years ago but that was my fault. The open floor and the open holes in the CB and roof throughout the winter ensure all round ventilation and minimal, if any, condensation and keeps the cluster tight enough to limit them roaming around gobbling stores. This must ensure they use stores more economically than otherwise. As regards, condensation, even in winter the bees need a "drink" occasionally and that is a ready-made source.

Only my view of course, other than for at least 3 Master Beeks in my BKA, and I'm sure that few posters here are going to take any notice anyway. But it is worth bearing in mind that the evolution of AmmAmm bees in this part of the world has made them manage their affairs in handling weather variables much better than some keepers allow and insulation is quite clearly not natural.

 

[Finman]

.
Debate.....you wll never learn because you have not winter.
Life teaches.
.

 

[MuswellMetro]

The September issue of Beecraft has a letter to the editor giving a personal view on Page 7 that advocates insulating hives. However, an article in the magazine by Margarte Cowley BSc says, alia inter, that "Where a colony is located in the UK, its exposure to cold winds, the race of the bees and colony size are all variables that affect the estimates" as to how much stored honey is needed for a colony. It continues "For example, more food is needed in south than the north because the bees will be more active and dipping into their stored food more often".

For that reason, insulation of hives needs to be carefully weighed up. I'm in the West Midlands and in a rural frost pocket to some degree and have never lost a colony due to the lack of insulation and I never insulate except when packing out a 5 frame nuc. I did lose one colony from starvation come spring 2 years ago but that was my fault. The open floor and the open holes in the CB and roof throughout the winter ensure all round ventilation and minimal, if any, condensation and keeps the cluster tight enough to limit them roaming around gobbling stores. This must ensure they use stores more economically than otherwise. As regards, condensation, even in winter the bees need a "drink" occasionally and that is a ready-made source.

Only my view of course, other than for at least 3 Master Beeks in my BKA, and I'm sure that few posters here are going to take any notice anyway. But it is worth bearing in mind that the evolution of AmmAmm bees in this part of the world has made them manage their affairs in handling weather variables much better than some keepers allow and insulation is quite clearly not natural.

well Ken Basterfield in September BBKA news states the same as your position and follows Wedmores line, and to me as qualified Building surveyor makes some inaccurate statements on condensation to justify through ventilation

 

[Arfermo]

The perennial debate contues unabated.

 

[user 6228]

... it is worth bearing in mind that the evolution of AmmAmm bees in this part of the world has made them manage their affairs in handling weather variables much better than some keepers allow and insulation is quite clearly not natural.

...
Amm bees evolved for tree cavities... Tree cavities these cavities are surrounded by material which is an insulator. I therefore say a very high degree of insulation is natural. my pir foam hives are constructed to be similar to a tree cavity in insulating properties. This similarity is a measured fact.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The perennial debate contues unabated.

it happens every year as well

 

[VEG]

I left the feed holes open on my crown boards one year the bees were fine they had lots of stores left as well in the spring. No insulation at all above just the open crown board and roof. The bees all survived and built up well. The only thing I do differently now is cover the feed holes.


Craig

 

[Pendragon]

Veg wrote I left the feed holes open on my crown boards one year the bees were fine they had lots of stores left as well in the spring. No insulation at all above just the open crown board and roof. The bees all survived and built up well. The only thing I do differently now is cover the feed holes

Was that with OMF? and does your roof have ventilation holes?

I thought I knew what I was going to do for winter but then read September BBKA and am having a rethink! It is very confusing for beginners facing their first winter - your annual debate is quite useful to newbies.

 

[user 6228]

well Ken Basterfield in September BBKA news states the same as your position and follows Wedmores line, and to me as qualified Building surveyor makes some inaccurate statements on condensation to justify through ventilation

I have just read that article and it a lot of flaws and unsubstantiated assumptions.
E.g. It ignore the convective circulation of air introducing fresh air.
It assumes mould growth is harmful... Yet Part of Bees behaviour in the wild is to excavate in tree moulds.
It assumes that bees always cluster , and cluster in a ball
It ignores the fact that condensation also reclaims heat.
It assumes condensation is cold.

tree nests, hives, houses are all structures with a heat and humidity source. The same physics applies to them.

 

[drstitson]

through ventilation may be ok for human habitation where there is an essentially unlimited source of fuel - ie the national grid/gas supply.

bees are stuck with their finite box full of stores.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I thought I knew what I was going to do for winter but then read September BBKA and am having a rethink!

And since when has the BBKA been renowned for it's good judgement?

 

[sandysman]

well Ken Basterfield in September BBKA news states the same as your position and follows Wedmores line, and to me as qualified Building surveyor makes some inaccurate statements on condensation to justify through ventilation

MuswellMetro. I have just read the article as my issue dropped through the door today. The question that came to mind for me was if KB has 150 hives IF OMF'S are the way to go how much cost and trouble would it be to change. And after 40 years of doing the same thing sometimes we become a little set in our ways.
I'm always happy to concede that I am wrong, (just ask the wife) but I like to think that I am open minded enough to take on new ideas IF they are better. But I guess at the end of the day if it works for you then run with it. Interesting article though.
Happy keeping
Andy

 

[MuswellMetro]

The perennial debate contues unabated.

yes, but it is cold and raining very heavily here , read the september issues of both BBKA news and Beecraft and i was bored, must remember not to add fuel to the fire

Cabin fever will have set in by March for most on the forum