nuc arriving on standard National frames but I have a 14x12 brood box

[Talking With Bees]

Hi.

I am new to beekeeping (I don't have bees yet) and came across this site as I am researching how I am going to transfer the nuc (which will arrive on standard national frames) into my 14x12 brood box.

I have a beehaus, so putting a 14x12 on top of the brood box is not an option.

Am thinking about the Burnett Extension? Can you fit these extensions when moving the nuc frames into the new brood box? Sounds like a recipe for disaster and that I will lose all my bees before I get them into their home.

Any other ideas?

Thanks for your help.

 

[tonybloke]

welcome to the forum!!
have a look at these previous threads

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sho...nverting+14x12

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sho...nverting+14x12

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sho...nverting+14x12

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/sho...nverting+14x12

 

[Nightynight]

Hi.

I am new to beekeeping (I don't have bees yet) and came across this site as I am researching how I am going to transfer the nuc (which will arrive on standard national frames) into my 14x12 brood box.

I have a beehaus, so putting a 14x12 on top of the brood box is not an option.

Am thinking about the Burnett Extension? Can you fit these extensions when moving the nuc frames into the new brood box? Sounds like a recipe for disaster and that I will lose all my bees before I get them into their home.

Any other ideas?

Thanks for your help.

First I doub't you need to tranfer them straight away anyway, just remember to site the nuc where you want the the hive to be at roughly the same height as the final entrance will be.. somebody else can advise better on b urnett, I think they would work myself but have not seen how a beehaus is set up to be honest

 

[Easy Beesy]

Why not try putting one frame with queenie on one side of your beehaus and all the other frames on the other side with the dummy/qe between? Populate the side with the Queen with some 14x12 frames and a full dummy and as the new bees emerge from the national side, dummied, they will move to the side with the queen and eventually the national frames will empty of brood as the other side fills up with brood. Then exchange the dummy/qe for the full dummy from the national side. You'll need to feed depending on flow/weather to help them draw the 14x12 foundation - but other than that, all you need is patience. And a lot of dummies!
Eb

 

[oliver90owner]

You could ask the hive suppliers. They OUGHT to know!

On second thoughts (didn't take long) you are better off here.

Put them in and leave them (put up with the wild comb)

Put them in with something beneath the frames to take up the space, initially.

Both these options follow the KISS principle.

Frame extensions? An expensive way to use them just the once, so not really worth the bother (although, as a beehaus user, you likely have plenty of disposable income!)

Whatever you choose, don't fill up the hive with frames all in one go - it will slow down their development and particularly so, should the weather be poor.

BTW. Is your avatar a 'photo' of Johannes?

RAB
(Dartington user and beehaus non-user)

 

[Talking With Bees]

Hi Tony,
Many thanks for this. But the links do not work for some reason.
Roger
ps. liking this forum.

 

[Talking With Bees]

You could ask the hive suppliers. They OUGHT to know!

On second thoughts (didn't take long) you are better off here.

Put them in and leave them (put up with the wild comb)

Put them in with something beneath the frames to take up the space, initially.

Both these options follow the KISS principle.

Frame extensions? An expensive way to use them just the once, so not really worth the bother (although, as a beehaus user, you likely have plenty of disposable income!)

Whatever you choose, don't fill up the hive with frames all in one go - it will slow down their development and particularly so, should the weather be poor.

BTW. Is your avatar a 'photo' of Johannes?

RAB
(Dartington user and beehaus non-user)

Hi Oliver,

I asked the hive suppliers and they have given the same answers.

You both suggest: "Put them in with something beneath the frames to take up the space, initially." This sounds good. And then what? How do I "lose" the standard frames?

LOL - no my avatar looks losely like me ... ie. dark hair and beard. But I know what you mean.

Thanks.

 

[enrico]

Oliver's got it right as usual! Put them in the hive anyway, swap one of the old frames at every inspection, all they will do is build wild comb, probably drone comb, on the bottom of the original frames. Ditch each original frame as you remove it. Try to move them towards one end if the hive and remove the outermost original frame. It is less likely to have brood on. It will knock the bees back for a few weeks but if you feed well and keep an eye on them it is by far the cheapest and most stress free alternative..... In my opinion anyway. Best of luck
E

 

[Talking With Bees]

Why not try putting one frame with queenie on one side of your beehaus and all the other frames on the other side with the dummy/qe between? Populate the side with the Queen with some 14x12 frames and a full dummy and as the new bees emerge from the national side, dummied, they will move to the side with the queen and eventually the national frames will empty of brood as the other side fills up with brood. Then exchange the dummy/qe for the full dummy from the national side. You'll need to feed depending on flow/weather to help them draw the 14x12 foundation - but other than that, all you need is patience. And a lot of dummies!
Eb

Thanks. Sounds like a good idea. Now. I am a total novice, so some basic questions:

1. Would I need to feed both hives? or Just the side with the 14x12s?
2. Who will look after the bees hatching on the standard side if the worker bees have walked through to the 14x12 side?
3. How will the bees hatching on the standard side be able to make it through the QE to the 14x12 side? Fly? Walk? Crawl?
4. On the standard side, should I put the bees close to the QE in the middle of the double hive? Or nearer the exit?
5. On the 14x12 side, should I put the bees close to the QE in the middle of the double hive? Or nearer the exit?

Big thanks.

 

[beebreeder]

Keep the whole nuc as one unit just as RAB says do not split them as there will be insufficient bees to keep everything warm, just slowly work the standard frames out to the outside of the broodnest as it expands onto the 14x12 keep it dummied back as the Beehaus is a big area for the bees to keep warm. I may even leave them in the nuc box unless it is bursting with bees and stand it next to the Beehaus entance until there is more forage around, a pic of the nuc may help with advice.
kev

 

[Talking With Bees]

Big thanks everyone.

AS RAB advises, I am going to put the standard frames in the beehaus, with something below, and withdraw a standard frame every 7-10 days. If I put card board below - will the bees eat it?

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Travelator]

I usually use crumpled up newspaper to fill spaces where I don't want the bees to build wild comb. They will, eventually, eat it if they think it's getting in their way. But it should work just fine for a week or two.

 

[John_W]

Leave it..

I would leave the short frames in.. and don't place anything below.
The bees will draw comb below, but usually it will be drone comb they draw out. As long as they have nice worker brood foundation nearby they should favour that for worker brood first. And so put stores then drone below.
So when you remove the frames to exchange them, you can also cull the drone and thus help reduce your varoa at the same time. You can get it bracing between frames admitdely but as long as you are aware when you inspect you can check to see and use your hive tool to remove it/seperate.

If you place the the frames from the nuc initially in the centre of the hive and see which way the bees expand toward, front or back relative to entrance point.. then each inspection move the frames one along in the opposite direction, it should allow you to remove the shorter frames over the season. As the colony effectively migrates along.

And yes, bees will eat/chew card board. So popping a record card in the roof, is best laminated or it could vanish.

 

[Chris B]

Whatever you do DO NOT remove frames with brood on. You absolutely need that brood for the bees to build up. Forget the notion of removing a frame every 7 to 10 days. Just be patient and wait for the opportunities i.e. when those frames are broodless. Take Kev's advice - gradually migrate the unwanted frames to the outside of the nest to accelerate their broodless state. Be prepared to not achieve all 5 removed this season. It won't be the end of the world.

Good luck

 

[Easy Beesy]

Thanks. Sounds like a good idea. Now. I am a total novice, so some basic questions:

1. Would I need to feed both hives? or Just the side with the 14x12s?
2. Who will look after the bees hatching on the standard side if the worker bees have walked through to the 14x12 side?
3. How will the bees hatching on the standard side be able to make it through the QE to the 14x12 side? Fly? Walk? Crawl?
4. On the standard side, should I put the bees close to the QE in the middle of the double hive? Or nearer the exit?
5. On the 14x12 side, should I put the bees close to the QE in the middle of the double hive? Or nearer the exit?

Big thanks.

Okay
1 you don't have 2 hives - you have your Nuc in the middle of the entire beehaus with the dummy board (with qe square) between.
So, dummy board, Nat frame, n frame, n frame, n frame, dummy with qe square, n frame with queen, frame with14x12 foundation, dummy.
Young bees will draw out found for q to lay in. Once they are drawing it you can add another as more bees will be emerging to help out. Gradually the national frames will empty of brood and all the nurse bees will be in same side of qe as queen and brood.

Close one entrance. Obviously the one not aligned with where your Nuc entrance was.

2 workers can pass freely between both types of frame through the qe so they will look after brood on both sides.

3 same as 2
4 see answer to 1

Once queen is laying on 14x12 side AND all brood has emerged from national side you can move all 14x 12 onto national side and remove dummy and national frames or turn the beehaus around and open the other entrance. EITHER way remove the qe dummy and replace with a full dummy board.
You now have all your bees and queen on one half of the beehaus.

It's just a matter of working sideways, not up.
hope it all goes well. Bees seem to do rather well in beehaus.
Eb

 

[Beanwood]

The bees will draw comb below, but usually it will be drone comb they draw out. As long as they have nice worker brood foundation nearby they should favour that for worker brood first. And so put stores then drone below.
So when you remove the frames to exchange them, you can also cull the drone and thus help reduce your varoa at the same time.

This is pretty much what we learned a couple of weeks ago - reduce the number of drones, but also uncap around 100 cells, and examine the contents to get an idea of your varroa count.

 

[Talking With Bees]

Okay
1 you don't have 2 hives - you have your Nuc in the middle of the entire beehaus with the dummy board (with qe square) between.
So, dummy board, Nat frame, n frame, n frame, n frame, dummy with qe square, n frame with queen, frame with14x12 foundation, dummy.
Young bees will draw out found for q to lay in. Once they are drawing it you can add another as more bees will be emerging to help out. Gradually the national frames will empty of brood and all the nurse bees will be in same side of qe as queen and brood.

Close one entrance. Obviously the one not aligned with where your Nuc entrance was.

2 workers can pass freely between both types of frame through the qe so they will look after brood on both sides.

3 same as 2
4 see answer to 1

Once queen is laying on 14x12 side AND all brood has emerged from national side you can move all 14x 12 onto national side and remove dummy and national frames or turn the beehaus around and open the other entrance. EITHER way remove the qe dummy and replace with a full dummy board.
You now have all your bees and queen on one half of the beehaus.

It's just a matter of working sideways, not up.
hope it all goes well. Bees seem to do rather well in beehaus.
Eb

Thanks again. I am likin this idea. Seems less messy and quicker to get the bees onto the 14x12 frames where they can be inspected.

1. All the bees will go onto the Queen side I imagine, so they should keep warm?

2. Does the brood need any attention from the worker bees? Or do they need to be kept warm? Or will they just hatch out and then move over to the Queen side?

3. Not sure why I need to flip the beehaus around. All the worker bees will have moved across to Queen side from the start. I will keep the back entrance closed. So they will only be using the front entrance from the start?

Thanks again.

 

[Talking With Bees]

Whatever you do DO NOT remove frames with brood on. You absolutely need that brood for the bees to build up. Forget the notion of removing a frame every 7 to 10 days. Just be patient and wait for the opportunities i.e. when those frames are broodless. Take Kev's advice - gradually migrate the unwanted frames to the outside of the nest to accelerate their broodless state. Be prepared to not achieve all 5 removed this season. It won't be the end of the world.

Good luck

will this wild honeycomb have stores in? will it be edible?

(apologies for being such a novice!)

 

[Easy Beesy]

Thanks again. I am likin this idea. Seems less messy and quicker to get the bees onto the 14x12 frames where they can be inspected.

1. All the bees will go onto the Queen side I imagine, so they should keep warm?

You imagine wrong Nurse bees will be found with brood.

2. Does the brood need any attention from the worker bees? Of course

Or do they need to be kept warm? Yes

Or will they just hatch out and then move over to the Queen side?

They will emerge and become nurse bees to brood.

3. Not sure why I need to flip the beehaus around. All the worker bees will have moved across to Queen side from the start.
No they won't - they will look after brood.

I will keep the back entrance closed. Only during transition. So they will only be using the front entrance from the start? Yes

Flip it because eventually all brood will be in other side of beehaus. Put in full dummy to the middle of the beehaus to split it in two. And clear out evacuated side ready for AS in future This means the bees cannot access the original entrance. When you flip it bees will still go to same place (not same entrance) to leave/enter hive. Just trust me - it'll make sense if you do it correctly. Checkout your omlet handbook - it's similar to doing an artificial swarm.
The handbook has information about how to look after bees and what the role of queen/worker/drone is. Worth reading if you know little about the habits of bees.
Hooper also worth reading
De Bruyn good 'practical' book too

Eb

 

[oliver90owner]

In a beehaus you simply put them in at one end with that entrance open. You simply put a divider behind and fit frames in front, between divider and entrance. No messing about. Simple. Slide them (frames) back as you increaase the number of frames (at the front end). Simple as that. No need for any complication.

Dartingtons have the entrance set back from the front wall, so they get a simlar but slightly different approach. The further back the frames are, the more likely they will be stores. Simple. When fully at the back they will only contain stores (unless you are A/Sing the colony, which is unlikely in the first year).

Why anyone should complicate matters is beyond me. KISS principle applies at all possible times and that makes for easy beekeeping.