Now that is interesting!

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Tremyfro

Queen Bee
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Possibly...5 and a bit...depends on the bees.
Do you remember the thread about using honey to emulsify thymol?
Well....here are my findings.
Method.
Mixed up the 30 grams of thymol crystals with the 5ml of spirit.
Warmed it in jar in hot water. When fully dissolved....added 70 ml of water and 70 ml of honey. Gave it a good shake.
To begin with it stayed as a creamy mixture.....slowly over many hours it separated into a layer of thick cream and a lower layer of darker liquid. These readily remixed at room temperature. When put outside at night the mixture again separated into the two layers and the top one solidified, the bottom one stayed liquid.
Once rewarmed.....a quick shake remixed the layers.
When added to sugar syrup...2:1....at a rate of 5ml per gallon and mixed by turning the container several times...as in a shake it was allowed to stand overnight at room temperature.
After 36 hours samples were taken....
1... A 5 ml sample from the bottom of the container
2....A 5ml sample from the surface of the container.
No oil could be seen in either sample....nor on the surface of the syrup.
To taste....they were indistinguishable.
Conclusion....in my mixture....the thymol was mixed throughout the syrup at room temperature.
Of course, I don't claim that the honey emulsified the thymol as it did separate...but something happened which allowed it to transfer the thymol properties throughout the syrup. 5ml in one gallon is a very small amount and I think that at room temperature it stays mixed. Perhaps because the syrup at a 2:1 concentration was thick enough to do this.
As I said...interesting.....and some people have reported on the forum that their mixture using lecithin has separated and required warming to remix it.
I have mixed my winter thymol syrup...so now I can see what the bees make of it at the next round of feeding. Since the colony temperature is warm...the mixture should not separate...well I hope sufficient stays mixed to do the job!
 
Which recipe are you using? I don't remember hivemaker's using honey.
 
Which recipe are you using? I don't remember hivemaker's using honey.

At the top of my post...I said it was a mix of thymol and honey....not a copy of Hivemakers recipe. It was an exercise in investigating whether one could use honey instead of lecithin. That is all. Honey is claimed to be an emulsifier by chefs/cooks and is used as such in many recipes....I was interested in whether it could do the job with the thymol.....since the bees made the honey and not the lecithin....one less substance in the hive.
 
Honey is claimed to be an emulsifier by chefs/cooks and is used as such in many recipes..
Their sauces only need to hold together for time it takes to eat your main course! Similar to your experiment, honey holds things together for a short time before separating out.
A proper emulsifier will hold it all together almost indefinitely.
 
Their sauces only need to hold together for time it takes to eat your main course! Similar to your experiment, honey holds things together for a short time before separating out.
A proper emulsifier will hold it all together almost indefinitely.

So why have some people reported here on the forum that their syrup had separated and needed to be warmed before use?
As long as the honey...as in my experiment holds it together long enough for the bees to take it down....does it matter if honey or lecithin is used? I suppose if you are storing it for a long time...maintaining an emulsification would be useful. Even so...if you are storing it and the main reason for having thymol is to prevent mould rather than as a treatment for nosema......then the dilution would be even greater...5 ml to 3 gallons being quoted. I suspect sufficient thymol would stay in suspension to achieve mould prevention...in that case.
 
My stock jar of thymol suspension, made last year, as per HM recipe, contained definite thymol crystals when I came to use it this year. Warmed it up and all dissolved again.
 
I'm really not concerned how anybody emulsifies their thymol as long as it is OK for the bees. I use Lecithin. The emulsion is stable for a long time. I'm still on a jarful I made four years ago.

since the bees made the honey and not the lecithin....one less substance in the hive.

I was quite interested in that statement so I had a look around.
Google is awash with definitions of pollen and most of them say pollen contains lecithin.....some up to 15%
 
I'm really not concerned how anybody emulsifies their thymol as long as it is OK for the bees. I use Lecithin. The emulsion is stable for a long time. I'm still on a jarful I made four years ago.



I was quite interested in that statement so I had a look around.
Google is awash with definitions of pollen and most of them say pollen contains lecithin.....some up to 15%

Not so much a statement...more an observation. Lecithin is in many plant extracts...contained in the cell walls. The lecithin most readily available is from soya.
.......just had a thought...if the pollen contains the lecithin....and the honey has pollen in it....does that make it an emulsifier? Or a partial emulsifier? Or perhaps using the pollen stored in the hive would be a better emulsifier? ...
 
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So why have some people reported here on the forum that their syrup had separated and needed to be warmed before use?
As long as the honey...as in my experiment holds it together long enough for the bees to take it down....does it matter if honey or lecithin is used? I suppose if you are storing it for a long time...maintaining an emulsification would be useful. Even so...if you are storing it and the main reason for having thymol is to prevent mould rather than as a treatment for nosema......then the dilution would be even greater...5 ml to 3 gallons being quoted. I suspect sufficient thymol would stay in suspension to achieve mould prevention...in that case.

Obviously bad cooks!
I don't use emulsifiers, no mould even in 1:1 syrup. Whether you need the emulsification for possible nosema prevention, I don't know. Alcohol solubility followed by addition to syrup leaves enough thymol in the water soluble fraction to do its job.
 
Obviously bad cooks!
I don't use emulsifiers, no mould even in 1:1 syrup. Whether you need the emulsification for possible nosema prevention, I don't know. Alcohol solubility followed by addition to syrup leaves enough thymol in the water soluble fraction to do its job.

Well it has been an interesting development of an idea. Perhaps next time I will leave out the water and just add 140 ml of honey. ATM I have enough to last for a time! Thank you all for your helpful comments...
 
And what was the result if no lecithin or honey used?
 
I didn't do that one....do you want to do it?...I don't have any empty containers now!

Well it is important to show if honey is having an effect. Positive and negative controls are always essential to show an effect relative to something else.
 
So....make up the mixture ...the same ingredients but leave out the honey?
 
So....make up the mixture ...the same ingredients but leave out the honey?

It's your experiment not mine. I use lecithin... simple and know it works well because Hivemaker is a fab.
 
Well I did as Beebot suggested...I made up the thymol in just the alcohol and water...of course as expected...it didn't mix at all. It was pointless mixing with the syrup as the oil floated on top. Even after vigorous shaking...the oil immediately floated on top of the water. However, when I then mixed in some honey...it changed the dynamics of the mixture.....at room temperature.....it mixed into the syrup and didn't float on top.
So there you have it. Lecithin or honey...take your pick.
The honey does do something...whether it truly emulsifies it or whether it is able to hold the oil in suspension...I don't know...but it definitely does do something.
 
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