Non-interventionalist beekeeping?

[flemage]

Firstly many thanks Pargyle for my 'free' copy of 'at the hive entrance'. That’s my bed time reading sorted! What a great gift the internet and this forum is!

As stated I have and will treat when I see problems and I will intervene chemically when I feel its needed and complete full inspections because I believe that it is needed or they will die.

But I am very happy to find that others have another experience and I have to say that I am enjoying learning from this thread.

Thank You.

 

[clv101]

I try never to use the words Natural or Conventional - too many zealots at both ends !!

Combining the words natural and bee keeping is clearly oxymorons. As soon as the keeper starts interfering in any way we've lost natural as an absolute term. However, I certainly think there is a spectrum of bee keeping practices that are more or less natural. Providing foundation is less natural than allowing the bees to build wild comb, breaking the brood nest up for regular inspections is less natural than leaving them be etc.

Unfortunately when different people apply the term 'natural' they have their own, individual understandings of where on the spectrum they are referring to. Without common terms of reference disagreement is pretty much guaranteed.

As an aside, I've often wondered about the use of the term 'conventional'. Why is food production with artificial pesticides, herbicides and medications considered conventional whereas organic food warrants the special label? Would it not be more sensible to assume organic production as the conventional method and relabel conventional as 'artificial', 'industrial', 'chemical' or some such similar term?

Similarly to bee keeping, why is keeping in a box with movable frames, inspection, feeding, medication, swarm control etc. regarded as 'conventional' rather than 'intensive' or 'modern' etc. Surely the term conventional should be reserved to describe how bees have been keep for thousands of years rather than the last century or decade with some practices?

 

[For want of a better word]

Combining the words natural and bee keeping is clearly oxymorons. As soon as the keeper starts interfering in any way we've lost natural as an absolute term. However, I certainly think there is a spectrum of bee keeping practices that are more or less natural. Providing foundation is less natural than allowing the bees to build wild comb, breaking the brood nest up for regular inspections is less natural than leaving them be etc.

Unfortunately when different people apply the term 'natural' they have their own, individual understandings of where on the spectrum they are referring to. Without common terms of reference disagreement is pretty much guaranteed.

As an aside, I've often wondered about the use of the term 'conventional'. Why is food production with artificial pesticides, herbicides and medications considered conventional whereas organic food warrants the special label? Would it not be more sensible to assume organic production as the conventional method and relabel conventional as 'artificial', 'industrial', 'chemical' or some such similar term?

Similarly to bee keeping, why is keeping in a box with movable frames, inspection, feeding, medication, swarm control etc. regarded as 'conventional' rather than 'intensive' or 'modern' etc. Surely the term conventional should be reserved to describe how bees have been keep for thousands of years rather than the last century or decade with some practices?

Perhaps the terms Practical... keeping bees in a box than can be easily monitored.
OR
Impractical.... keeping bees in an old log or ball of straw covered in cow poo or whatever... which I would think somewhat difficult to monitor.




Hope I have not now opened up the flood gates for all the "swivel eyed loonies" to get all uppity !!

 

[clv101]

Practical sounds like a good word.

Not so happy with 'impractical' however as it implies that it's hard to do something you want to do. For example If the method of bee keeping doesn't involve inspection, it's not impractical that inspections are hard.

 

[VEG]

why not just plain old 'beekeeper' it applies to all doesnt wind anyone up and its what we all do

 

[MandF]

Can't leave that "natural" word alone can you?

Oh, and I'm a pragmatist as well, I'm really quite pragmatic about everything and varroa doesn't kill my colonies and I'm not convinced varroa kills many if any colonies. Dropping, loosing or squashing Queens does though.

Chris

eh? how many times have I used it?

You may not be convinced varroa kills, but there is an overwhelming body of opinion which thinks otherwise.

I, personally, am not going to take the risk.

Actually, are you saying you have zero overwinter losses since having this hands-off attitude to varroa?

 

[For want of a better word]

why not just plain old 'beekeeper' it applies to all doesnt wind anyone up and its what we all do

some it seems do not actively beekeep... more passively beemind !

 

[MandF]

Combining the words natural and bee keeping is clearly oxymorons. As soon as the keeper starts interfering in any way we've lost natural as an absolute term. However, I certainly think there is a spectrum of bee keeping practices that are more or less natural. Providing foundation is less natural than allowing the bees to build wild comb, breaking the brood nest up for regular inspections is less natural than leaving them be etc.

Unfortunately when different people apply the term 'natural' they have their own, individual understandings of where on the spectrum they are referring to. Without common terms of reference disagreement is pretty much guaranteed.

As an aside, I've often wondered about the use of the term 'conventional'. Why is food production with artificial pesticides, herbicides and medications considered conventional whereas organic food warrants the special label? Would it not be more sensible to assume organic production as the conventional method and relabel conventional as 'artificial', 'industrial', 'chemical' or some such similar term?

Similarly to bee keeping, why is keeping in a box with movable frames, inspection, feeding, medication, swarm control etc. regarded as 'conventional' rather than 'intensive' or 'modern' etc. Surely the term conventional should be reserved to describe how bees have been keep for thousands of years rather than the last century or decade with some practices?

Surely 'conventional' means whatever is the current usual/generally agreed methods of beekeeping?

So that means in boxes with frames, not skeps, and it means regular inspections for disease, and treatment for nosema/varroa when needed.

I would suggest ignoring varroa and not treating it (and a brood break is a valid 'treatment' within IPM!) is unconventional.

I agree 'natural' isnt a very accurate word to use to describe these unconventional ideas, as I said previously, the only natural beekeeping is to leave them in a tree and not take any honey.

 

[MandF]

some it seems do not actively beekeep... more passively beemind !

beementors?

beefacilitators?

 

[Chris Luck]

eh? how many times have I used it?

You may not be convinced varroa kills, but there is an overwhelming body of opinion which thinks otherwise.

I, personally, am not going to take the risk.

Actually, are you saying you have zero overwinter losses since having this hands-off attitude to varroa?

If you read what I say in this and other threads we will get somewhere.

Of course I have winter losses, it's what happens when a Queen goes dud from Oct until April which is what happens to everyone regardless BUT I don't have varroa related colony losses. I also have losses due to V;Queens failing to mate or failing to mate successfully at more or less the rate that would be expected. All as an average over the years and I don't buy bees, I supply other people.

It's not necessarily something wrong when a bee colony fails any more than when a person dies, it's the way this planet works - we would have run out of space a long time ago if that wasn't the case.

Chris

 

[sunhivebee]

Schhh... don't say that. The natural beekeepers will come down like a crowd of locusts and claim you are undermining their world.. (Sugar being a "natural substance"

I prefer to use icing sugar on cakes rather than insects whose tiny spiracles are likely to get blocked. How about you?

 

[MandF]

Chris, I think that is a bad analogy.

True, people die, do you therefore think we should just let africans get bitten by mosquitos because only a small percentage will catch, and die of, malaria?

Just knowing varroa might kill, or contribute to a colony dying, is enough for conventional beekeepers to take preventative measures, where they are available and relatively non-intrusive.

I guess it depends on how 'happy' you are in taking that chance, or how well equipped you are to replace them. Perhaps if you faced the prospect of paying £140 for a nuc if to replace every colony you lost, you might be more concerned with taking preventative measures re: varroa?

 

[davnig]

Perhaps the terms Practical... keeping bees in a box than can be easily monitored.
OR
Impractical.... keeping bees in an old log or ball of straw covered in cow poo or whatever... which I would think somewhat difficult to monitor.




Hope I have not now opened up the flood gates for all the "swivel eyed loonies" to get all uppity !!

Depends where you are:

in a manufactured box which needs manufactured frames and manufactured foundation and costs ten -20 times as much - Impractical

in a log hung from a tree with local materials at a fraction of the cost in a way that has been practiced for generations - Practical

There are swivel eyed loonies on both sides - name calling would be one way of identifying them maybe??

 

[Chris Luck]

Chris, I think that is a bad analogy.

True, people die, do you therefore think we should just let africans get bitten by mosquitos because only a small percentage will catch, and die of, malaria?

Just knowing varroa might kill, or contribute to a colony dying, is enough for conventional beekeepers to take preventative measures, where they are available and relatively non-intrusive.

I guess it depends on how 'happy' you are in taking that chance, or how well equipped you are to replace them. Perhaps if you faced the prospect of paying £140 for a nuc if to replace every colony you lost, you might be more concerned with taking preventative measures re: varroa?

Having chosen to keep bees I also selected a suitable place to keep them in a manner that I consider appropriate and in sufficient numbers that I don't have to worry about allowing survival of the fittest and natural selection to take its course, but then I'm a naturalist, wildlife is my thing. We manage the habitat and then don't interfere, my land is for more than bees and I do keep some bees in "boxes" that are never opened and no honey is extracted ever.

Your situation is clearly different BUT please don't make the mistake of thinking that unmanaged or low management non treated colonies are unhealthy or can't survive - they can and do. Also, in case you haven't seen my other posts, money isn't my thing - life is, however if you are paying £140 for some bees perhaps you could research other options, perhaps even raising some of your own?

Chris

 

[clv101]

Depends where you are:

in a manufactured box which needs manufactured frames and manufactured foundation and costs ten -20 times as much - Impractical

in a log hung from a tree with local materials at a fraction of the cost in a way that has been practiced for generations - Practical

Yes, you're quite right! Appropriate technology is different depending on the situation. What's practical for one could be highly impractical for the next guy.

 

[user 6228]

...and I do keep some bees in "boxes" that are never opened and no honey is extracted ever.

...perhaps you could research other options,...
Chris

I'm currently trying a bee box with the thermal conductance and aspect ratio of tree nest.
This one is ~1m high and has approximately 40L capacity.

 

[beekeeping4you]

Depends where you are:

in a manufactured box which needs manufactured frames and manufactured foundation and costs ten -20 times as much - Impractical

in a log hung from a tree with local materials at a fraction of the cost in a way that has been practiced for generations - Practical

There are swivel eyed loonies on both sides - name calling would be one way of identifying them maybe??

Hi Davnig,

in a manufactured box with manufactured frames hung from a tree like a log with more or less local materials - Semipractical

No need for name calling!

Regards
Reiner

 

[davnig]

No need for name calling!

Regards
Reiner

i agree

 

[pargyle]

Firstly many thanks Pargyle for my 'free' copy of 'at the hive entrance'. That’s my bed time reading sorted! What a great gift the internet and this forum is!

/QUOTE]

It's not a great quality ...obviously a copy that has been scanned ... I think it may be out of copyright now. It's an interesting read but you will probably find more use for it if you spend time actually looking at the hive entrance. I've spent a fair amount of time doing just that in the last couple of weeks and it's surprising what you can learn from watching the bees and referring back to Storch. It's just a pity that it's not available as a database or flow chart ... perhaps with some updating to include some of the issues that have affected bees in more recent years. In it's present form, as a reference book, it's not easy to use - as a searchable document it would be a very useful aid to beekeepers (particularly us newbies !).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is a "natural beekeeper"?

One who does his/her inspections in the nude