Non-interventionalist beekeeping?

[Chris Luck]

I think the point is that here in France at any rate the colony loss rate is the same whether treated for varroa or not, that seems quite convincing to me and my bees fail for what I consider to be natural causes NOT diseases.

Also it isn't the keeper that selects if any selection takes place when pursuing a low management strategy, it's the bees.

Chris

 

[sunhivebee]

Absolutely right, except varroa has evolved to be a parasite on apis cerana, which can tolerate it for several reasons.

Unlike apis mellifera unless they have a particular genetic trait, like more grooming/cleaning than is usual.

Can you list those other significant stressors (and presumably virus vectors) which we can examine, and more importantly, manage as beekeepers?

Yes, I will, but probably later tonight, as my style of beekeeping implies heavy swarm watch duties at this very moment .... but while on the topic of swarming: I attribute the vitality of my bees to many different factors, a significant one of which is, I believe, that the varroa breeding cycles experience a significant set-back in swarmed colonies; look forward to discussing further tonight, provided that we do not get, in the meantime, the all too common degeneration of a discussion thread I have become accustomed to witness, with the usual insinuations of "varroa-infested" colonies filling chimneys and being "inflicted" on neighbours.
Off to swarm-watch now.....

 

[MandF]

Forcing bees to cluster when the outside temp goes below 7C. This is a purely man driven thing from having convienent materials (recycled or otherwise).
A true non-interventionist would allow bees to choose when to cluster by providing a nest at least as insulated as a tree.

Derek, the only true non-interventionist colony is one which is in a tree (or a place of its choosing) and for you not to "keep" it at all. No beekeeping, and no honey. Ie a feral colony.

How have feral colonies been dealing with varroa, presumably they are varroa free, or at least happily coexist?

 

[user 6228]

Which traits in varroa make them harmless to apis mellifera?

And I think one of the main issues we have is that unless everyone does the same thing at once, it doesnt matter if you somehow select cuddly varroa, it only takes a few robbers/drifters to reinfect your hives with the nasty ones, and they will take a hold again. Ad infinitum.

Also, of course, you will need to be sure every queen you have is from the same stock, and is selectively mated, or else you will lose those genetic traits.


There is an issue with the whole biting thing, in that they need to get hold of the little buggers to bite them in the first place. Varroa 'hide' on the back of bees so they cannot be groomed off.

you dont need to have everyone just enough in any area.

Bees are social insects they are not individuals. they bite parasites where they find them i.e. on another insects back.
varroa being biten by bees is well documented.

 

[user 6228]

Derek, the only true non-interventionist colony is one which is in a tree (or a place of its choosing) and for you not to "keep" it at all. No beekeeping, and no honey. Ie a feral colony.

How have feral colonies been dealing with varroa, presumably they are varroa free, or at least happily coexist?

read this https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/seeley_apidologie_2007(38)19-29.pdf

 

[MandF]

you dont need to have everyone just enough in any area.

Bees are social insects they are not individuals. they bite parasites where they find them i.e. on another insects back.
varroa being biten by bees is well documented.

I saw a drone the other day with a varroa on its back - didnt see any other bee try and groom it!

Im not sure what else to say, if apis mellifera is so well adapted to deal with phoretic mites then swarms wouldnt have any varroa, or a brood break will clear a hive of mites. And we wouldnt have a varroa problem to begin with.

Do you think the only reason we have an issue is because we treat for them?

 

[user 6228]

I saw a drone the other day with a varroa on its back - didnt see any other bee try and groom it!

Im not sure what else to say, if apis mellifera is so well adapted to deal with phoretic mites then swarms wouldnt have any varroa, or a brood break will clear a hive of mites. And we wouldnt have a varroa problem to begin with.

Do you think the only reason we have an issue is because we treat for them?

I think the issue maybe being prolonged by the treatments. I think the way bees are kept by beekeepers(both natural and conventional) reduces the bees capability to withstand the extra loading and extra diseases until the balance between varroa and bees is established.

 

[MandF]

read this https://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/seeley_apidologie_2007(38)19-29.pdf

I skimmed it.

First it clearly said mite levels were unchanged, year on year. So the colonies were as infested as when they started monitoring.

The discussion point seemed to be the fact that the colonies still survived despite the infestation. I believe this report was done during CCD, and where varroa was held responsible - therefore they were looking for colonies to be wiped out if infestations were high?

You seem to be going along with one of their possible explanations - that the mites evolved avirulence, as you mentioned selecting for a reduced reproduction in varroa earlier.

I am more inclined to go with their third explanation - the amount of swarming, and potential re-colonisation of hives.

Anyway, I presume you are not treating your hives for varroa at all, so will be interesting to see what your loss rate is (or isnt!).

 

[user 6228]

...
Anyway, I presume you are not treating your hives for varroa at all, so will be interesting to see what your loss rate is (or isnt!).

5 small colonies all derived from the single colony so ~ 2 frames each. in june 2012.
2 colonies fed ~ 2 litres of syrup to build them up a bit.

heather crop removed, left with ivy crop. No autumn feed. No autumn varroa treatment. No winter oxalic. Until march colonies had consumed little or no fondant.In the winter extension about 2kg per colony.

All survived. 2 colonies had been removed to Cambridgeshire (being inspected today) The 3 here were on brood and a half and doing very very well. Between the two sites there are now 10 colonies.

Summary: tiny colonies, lousy summer, terrrible winter, no treatment, no feeding up = 100% survival +excellent development.

 

[Stiffy]

Me too.... not realising that they can sting adequately through an open mesh floor.... as I was carrying a colony to my out apiary!
( may bee the second... I now suffer from short term memory loss!)

Not sure what memory loss has to do with getting stung but hope it clears up
S

 

[clv101]

Some say tearing the colony apart to satisfy the beekeeper that all is well, that there is a laying queen.. that has to be found, marked clipped... and found again on every inspection.. may disrupt the colony so much it takes a full week to get back to where they were... and then again in another 10 or less days!

I'm interested to know the impact of inspections. This should be a fairly easy thing to test scientifically. Does anyone know of any studies where a large number of hives were managed with (say) weekly, monthly, and seasonal inspections and what the results where - quantitatively?

 

[beekeeping4you]

There is an issue with the whole biting thing, in that they need to get hold of the little buggers to bite them in the first place. Varroa 'hide' on the back of bees so they cannot be groomed off.

I found they know better where to 'hide':
(This could explain why 'sugar dusting' is not very effective - or not at all effective?)
(And will 'grooming' bees ever get hold of enough mites if there are too many hidden like that?)

Regards
Reiner

 

[madasafish]

(This could explain why 'sugar dusting' is not very effective - or not at all effective?)

Regards
Reiner

Schhh... don't say that. The natural beekeepers will come down like a crowd of locusts and claim you are undermining their world.. (Sugar being a "natural substance"

 

[Chris Luck]

Schhh... don't say that. The natural beekeepers will come down like a crowd of locusts and claim you are undermining their world.. (Sugar being a "natural substance"

What is a "natural beekeeper"?

I really do think it's time to define things in a better and clearer manner.

I prefer for myself low management, less intrusive, minimal manipulations and only if really required, no artificial treatments - (artificial = anything that wouldn't normally be in an unmanaged colony). Bees kept on my land where there are no chemicals or "cides" used.

That's for starters, but please not "natural".

Chris

 

[pargyle]

!

What is a "natural beekeeper"?

I really do think it's time to define things in a better and clearer manner.

I prefer for myself low management, less intrusive, minimal manipulations and only if really required, no artificial treatments - (artificial = anything that wouldn't normally be in an unmanaged colony). Bees kept on my land where there are no chemicals or "cides" used.

That's for starters, but please not "natural".

Chris

We've tried this before ... you are in exactly the same place as I am but trying to define beekeepers in a way that doesn't upset one or other of the extremes is nigh impossible ... I try never to use the words Natural or Conventional - too many zealots at both ends !!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Your having a laugh, yes?

My bees get 10 out of 10 from the inspector which by his own admission isn't what some of keepers round here that treat their bees get.

Chris

Nothing remotely funny about living within foraging distance of an infection source. Maybe your area is clean?

 

[MandF]

We've tried this before ... you are in exactly the same place as I am but trying to define beekeepers in a way that doesn't upset one or other of the extremes is nigh impossible ... I try never to use the words Natural or Conventional - too many zealots at both ends !!

I think the problem comes when the 'natural' beekeeper moralises about the perceived unnecessary/arcane IPM carried out by most normal hobby beekeepers.

If a natural approach works for someone, then great. Just like if someone insists that siting their hives on ley lines increases their honey crop, or painting their hives in a groovy paisley pattern deters swarming.

Similarly if some people want to keep bees strictly according to Ted Hooper, or Brother Adam - then fine.

Being somewhat of a pragmatist, I will do and try things I feel (might) work for me, and at this time I dont think leaving varroa to kill off colonies, hoping the next one I have to buy is more resistant is not an option for me.

 

[Chris Luck]

Nothing remotely funny about living within foraging distance of an infection source. Maybe your area is clean?

As I'm not bothered by anything except AFB and that is apparently very rarely spread by bees and as I don't go round poking in other peoples hives or have other people poking in mine it's really not an issue.

Varroa is definitely present in my colonies, I occasionally see the evidence, the odd chewed wings, but it's of no real consequence - zero mites isn't an option for anyone.

Chris

 

[Chris Luck]

I think the problem comes when the 'natural' beekeeper moralises about the perceived unnecessary/arcane IPM carried out by most normal hobby beekeepers.

If a natural approach works for someone, then great. Just like if someone insists that siting their hives on ley lines increases their honey crop, or painting their hives in a groovy paisley pattern deters swarming.

Similarly if some people want to keep bees strictly according to Ted Hooper, or Brother Adam - then fine.

Being somewhat of a pragmatist, I will do and try things I feel (might) work for me, and at this time I dont think leaving varroa to kill off colonies, hoping the next one I have to buy is more resistant is not an option for me.

Can't leave that "natural" word alone can you?

Oh, and I'm a pragmatist as well, I'm really quite pragmatic about everything and varroa doesn't kill my colonies and I'm not convinced varroa kills many if any colonies. Dropping, loosing or squashing Queens does though.

Chris

 

[pargyle]

I think the problem comes when the 'natural' beekeeper moralises about the perceived unnecessary/arcane IPM carried out by most normal hobby beekeepers.
.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other on here ....there's some pretty sniffy comments from some beeks about people who choose to practice low intervention, chemical free beekeeping. I'm pretty easy going - I take my own path and I'm pretty pragmatic about what I need to do. Everyone has their own way of doing things, their own principles and beliefs. If we all accepted that there is probably no 'Right way' at present and listen to all sides of the debate, commenting only in constructive terms then we would get along just fine. It's a bit like religion and politics ... best to take a live and live attitude.