No sign of Queen!

[Abbee]

Hi. On inspecting our 2 hives yesterday, we are really worried about one of them.
1. Very little uncapped brood,
2. a frame full of what looked like drone (capped).
3. 5 uncapped queen cells
4. 2 capped queen cells

and worse we couldn't find the queen. She's a new queen, less than 2 months old. We marked her last week. Could be we missed her but because of all the above points we think she's not there.

So many questions. Why? How? and what to do?

We've been unlucky with the queens that the old queen from that hive produced. Long story but about 1 and a half months ago we had 3 new queens from her, one replaced her in the hive which is now the missing one, and we kept the other 2 in a nuc each for insurance. But those 2 disappeared after they hatched. So we put a brood frame in one of them which then resulted in a QC but after more than 16 days it still hasn't hatched.

Could the old queen have produced failing queens? sorry if that's a stupid question.

We're waiting to see if one of the capped QCs is successful. If not we'll put a brood frame from the good hive.
How can we tell if a worker is laying the drones? and if so do we destroy them?
Any advice would be great.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Where on the frames are the QCs?

 

[REDWOOD]

Sometimes marking queens triggers supercedure or emergency queen cells. As careful as you think you are the bees can detect a not quite right queen. Drones are a good thing in your case.
Choose the best open QC/QC's that is floated in royal jelly and look like they will develop into healthy queen/queen's and leave well alone for 3-4 weeks

 

[enrico]

I would be getting a bit concerned about how strong that hive might be over winter. If it is weak now then is the queen going to be laying enough to get her through if she is still an egg at the moment. Maybe you might consider combining them. I know that might mean you are back down to one hive but......
Just a thought!
E

 

[Cellectronic]

Enrico,, I agree with you !
It is better to combine, and have a strong hive that has more of a survival chance through winter .
Then next year may be it will be strong enough to split.
That,s if it is a weak colony or you have one that needs strengthening.
Good luck.

 

[oliver90owner]

With that number of queen cells, it would appear your queen is lost.

Look at it three ways.

One week after marking, queen cells are abundant.

If swarming, queen cups or eggs in queen cells would have been clearly visible last week.

If supercedure, too many cells for the norm.

Remove capped queen cells ( likely started on older larvae) and leave just one or maybe two open cells, as per Redwood.

That way, the bees will only be looking after the minimum of larvae , so probably better queen(s).

at a pure guess, I would think she was damaged and possibly unable to guage cell size , so was laying drones, then was lost, either by the bees or just pegged following the marking event.

RAB

 

[thorn]

Sometimes marking queens triggers supercedure or emergency queen cells.

Which raises the question - how long should we leave a new queen to become established before marking her?

 

[beeno]

Hi Abbee,
With those genetics I would bite the bulett. Your options in my book are unite, get laying queen (if colony strong enough to warrant it) or let them raise q from frame of brood from good hive which this late in the season may not have good mating odds - with the same caveat about colony strength.

 

[REDWOOD]

Which raises the question - how long should we leave a new queen to become established before marking her?

Time of year is more important, now drones are being evicted It won't be much longer before virgin queens have a healthy supply of drones. In the spring is the only time I mark mine

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Time of year is more important, now drones are being evicted It won't be much longer before virgin queens have a healthy supply of drones. In the spring is the only time I mark mine

Do not??

 

[Fatbee]

Since this year I'm with Redwood only mark at start of season ahead of a need before swarm control. When I first started I wasted a lot of time trying to find and mark queens only to find later on that they replaced Her majesty later in season. Also reduces my interference. I tend to focus on reading the brood patterns and colony strength rather than hunting down the queen every time.

 

[beeno]

Since this year I'm with Redwood only mark at start of season ahead of a need before swarm control. When I first started I wasted a lot of time trying to find and mark queens only to find later on that they replaced Her majesty later in season. Also reduces my interference. I tend to focus on reading the brood patterns and colony strength rather than hunting down the queen every time.

Well, at least you new what was going on then. I don't hunt mine down, but when they pop out at me I mark them. Constant supercedure or swarming is not a good trait to breed from.

 

[Fatbee]

Think it coincided with poor mating because of bad weather rather than a genetic trait for superseding queens. The point I was trying to make was by obsessing to find queen each time can be counter productive if the many more things to tell health of colony are not seen because of queen spotting. However, for swarm control that's when having marked queen is invaluable.

 

[oliver90owner]

Which raises the question - how long should we leave a new queen to become established before marking her?

A couple of brood cycles, I would suggest. Neither early or late in the season would be a clever move by one-hive owners in particular. There is always the risk of the bees rejecting her.

If that occurs early or late, any resultant emergency queen may fail to mate and the brood break would seriously affect the ability of the colony to either collect a large surplus (early on) or produce sufficient winter bees (later on).

The latter may not appear to be too worrysome but the winter bees might need to survive another couple of brood cycles or not be as varroa infection-free as they might otherwise.

IMO, there is too much emphasis on getting her marked. And supercedure by the bees is a good trait if done in a bee controlled manner and not instigated by interfering beekeepers (marking and/or damaging the queen).

Thinking ahead, of the possible rammifications of a a rejected queen, would be good.

Marking a young queen as soon as she starts laying is also more likely to lead to rejection or supercedure.

RAB

 

[beeno]

I think we are actually singing from the same hymn sheet. However, what causes newbies or oldbies for that matter the most trouble? Swarm control and finding an unmarked queen in a busy hive which makes swarm control more difficult. Therefore it is rather convenient to have your queens marked during the swarming season, but it is of course very much easier to find an unmarked queen during spring build-up when the hive population is far less.

 

[oliver90owner]

I think we are actually singing from the same hymn sheet.-

You might be thinking that, but my thoughts were a more than a little deeper than yours. You would (apparently) mark at any time you happened to see an unmarked queen. I would not. I specifically ruled out early and late in the season when further problems may arise if the new queen were to not get mated satisfactorily.

If one has a problem with finding swarming queens, one simply adopts a different strategy. Simple.

I differentiated between those with very few hives and those with lots (at least several). Those with many hives would not allow requeening naturally, but simply introduce a new laying queen. Uniting is an option only if one has more than one colony!

Lots to consider, not just 'when she pops up'. I would not consider marking if the inspection was one when the weather was inclement and the queen 'just popped up'. Getting priorities right makes beekeeping simple. Thinking before acting does help.

I don't actually have any particular problem in finding the queen, normally. So when I used to mark, I simply set out to do it, found her and marked her. No hassle, no problems really, when you know where to find her, etc, etc.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'll only mark if that was one of the objectives of the inspection, thus crown of thorns and pen in pocket.
I still have half a dozen new queens to mark this year, but they'll stay unmarked now until next year.
As for swarm control - if she doesn't want to be found, you won't see her, marked or not. If I'm looking for the wueen,the last think i do is look for the mark - you can spend ages looking for a red/green/white whatever spot instead of looking for a queen shaped bee as invariably the mark will have worn off!
Had two unsuccesful attempts in June looking for a 'red' queen, the next time I just looked for a queen, and there she was.

 

[BeeJayBee]

If I'm looking for the wueen,the last think i do is look for the mark - you can spend ages looking for a red/green/white whatever spot instead of looking for a queen shaped bee as invariably the mark will have worn off!

Or the one with the mark will have been superseded, or removed, when you weren't looking. Once inspections need to be less frequent, they can supersede without the beekeeper noticing.

Once a marked queen has been found, most people stop looking, so there could easily be another queen that goes unnoticed.

 

[beeno]

Sorry Oliver I was actually not talking to you.

 

[beeno]

I think we are actually singing from the same hymn sheet.-

You might be thinking that, but my thoughts were a more than a little deeper than yours. You would (apparently) mark at any time you happened to see an unmarked queen. I would not. I specifically ruled out early and late in the season when further problems may arise if the new queen were to not get mated satisfactorily.

If one has a problem with finding swarming queens, one simply adopts a different strategy. Simple.

I differentiated between those with very few hives and those with lots (at least several). Those with many hives would not allow requeening naturally, but simply introduce a new laying queen. Uniting is an option only if one has more than one colony!

Lots to consider, not just 'when she pops up'. I would not consider marking if the inspection was one when the weather was inclement and the queen 'just popped up'. Getting priorities right makes beekeeping simple. Thinking before acting does help.

I don't actually have any particular problem in finding the queen, normally. So when I used to mark, I simply set out to do it, found her and marked her. No hassle, no problems really, when you know where to find her, etc, etc.

Now I am talking to you. In your dreams! Don't put words in peoples' mouth in such a derogatory way - manners! Think - there would be little point in marking a queen before you know her laying pattern?