Newbie - havent looked in on them in 2weeks

[MandF]

Beeswax is around twice the thermal conductivity of plywood. So with a 9mm plywood dummy board you'd need 18mm thick foundation to keep the face of the secondmost frame at around the same temperature. Those of us in exposed positions in the North have found over many years that dummy boards are essential, not just an option and even more so in nucs either ply or cedar. Poly hives are different.

Thank you! An answer based on fact.

Obviously it is different here in the meditterranean south (ha!), but wouldnt 2 consecutive frames of foundation still offer decent insulation - effectively 2 sheets of wax with air between. I understand that a divider would contain the area and help keep it warm, but a dummy board would still lose convective heat and be effectively still warming the whole hive?

I will repeat, I am not asking this to be argumentative, I am simply trying to understand the actual difference it makes, and based on that I will change the way I do things.

 

[Rob55]

I have a feeder above the crown board so the only open hole is into that, I also still have an entrance block in place. Oliver so do you recommend I make up some partitions to put into the hive to keep the bees confined to the central frames?

 

[BKF Admin]

One week bans have been issued to two members in this thread.

If anyone has a problem with my decision please pm me and we can discuss it.

 

[scuttlefish]

Beeswax is around twice the thermal conductivity of plywood. So with a 9mm plywood dummy board you'd need 18mm thick foundation to keep the face of the secondmost frame at around the same temperature. Those of us in exposed positions in the North have found over many years that dummy boards are essential, not just an option and even more so in nucs either ply or cedar. Poly hives are different.

You learn something new every day - cheers!

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes, understood. The question remains unanswered, how much warmer would swapping out one frame of foundation for a dummy board be?

Until I see that answered, if I was in that situation, and I am not curiously enough, then I would use insulation, because I *know* that helps keep the hive warm. Significantly so.

And can I just repeat again, because someone likes to peddle misinformation, I do not advocate open feed holes all year round, or even all summer. I have only ever said that I was taught to allow bees into the roofspace to clean comb, because they see it as outside the hive. I therefore do this regularly, in the summer, because it works for me. Thats the top and tail of it. Go figure.

The best thing a dummy board will do apart from heat retention is concentrate the bees onto one or two frames at a time. When presented with a full box and especially when the weather is against them it slows them down.

A regular 12mm ply dummy board would help in a small way and an insulated dummy board would be a big improvement. A division board will be the best option.

Not able to give you exact science but the best thing we can do for a small colony is heat retention and patience

 

[Spadaman]

Could you please point to the evidence which suggests that frames of foundation is any colder than using what you recommend, a dummy board?

Okay, here are some scientific facts about the relative merits of foundation ( beeswax) and dummy boards ( plywood) as an insulating material. NB: Disclaimer: This does not constitute advice on which is better for the bees !

A materials effectiveness as a heat insulator is measured by it's thermal conductivity i.e. the rate at which heat will pass through it. I won't go into the calculations and units but basically the smaller the number the better the insulating properties. The thickness of the material also comes into the equation and the thicker the material the better the insulation.

The figures are as follows:
Beeswax 0.25 [W/mK ]
Plywood 0.125 [W/mK]
and for completness
Expanded Polystyrene 0.036 [W/mK]

So at any given thickness of material Beeswax conducts heat at twice the rate of plywood ( ingnoring slight differences of plywood construction etc). Given that foundation is about 1 or 2 mm thick and plywood dummy boards are, say, 6mm thick , it is clear that a dummy board will conduct far less heat than a frame of foundation.

Similarly, expanded polystyrene will conduct far less heat than either a plywood dummy board or foundation.

As I said above this does not necessarily mean that one is better than another when it comes to bee's welfare and takes no account of things like ventilation from OMF or open feed holes.

From my (admittedly very small amount of ) experience I have found that some colonies draw foundation very quickly whilst others don't. I have one colony that insists on drawing comb between the top of the brood frames , across the QE and the bottom of the super frames and filling them with honey, but are totally avoiding drawing the super foundation. It's not that cold where I live, very wet but not cold - just a typical British summer in fact.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Bill

 

[thorn]

One week bans have been issued to two members in this thread.

If anyone has a problem with my decision please pm me and we can discuss it.

Excellent.

 

[Fraise]

 

[susbees]

In cool conditions a rectangle of Kingspan beyond or instead of said dummy board or boards on moving a nuc into a full box and adding two frames at a time works well.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Pete D]

I was browsing as usual whilst enjoying a cuppa at work and read this thread, I initially thought I will chip in with some advice based on my limited experience on the original question...........
then it de-generated into a full on attack with numerous consecutive posts...........

I was gonna log off and ban myself for a week or 2

I keep recommending this forum to everybody I meet, as being a very good source of information and friendly with a 'community spirit' at times.
I would like to apologise to any of my recent 'recommendee's' for the awful outbursts contained within this post and re-iterate that it still remains a great place for advice and information, and please dont be put off by this post.

Will log off now and check my shares on the LSE forums instead

a disappointed
Pete D

 

[BeeJayBee]

Hi guys. Due to the non stop rain we have been having I have not had a chance to look in on my hive in over 2 weeks, and it looks set to continue like so. I have been feeding them 1:1 sugar and they have been guzzling it down and outside the hive everything looks fairly normal. They are a recently hived nuc (approx 6 weeks ago) so I want them to keep drawing out the new comb - when I last saw them they still had 5 empty frames to draw. Basically my question is at what point do I need to brave the weather and just go ahead with an inspection? There is the odd break in the showers but the sky is always threatening and as I work fairly long hours I can't just go at the drop of a hat.

If these were my bees I'd be inclined to take a look even if it's wet, but not thundery or a torrential downpour. I'd take off the roof and carefully slide the crown board far enough to one side above where the new foundation is - to see if they've started to build it - and then check some of the other frames to make sure the queen is still laying etc.. I don't think you'd need to check every frame.

If you slide the crown board across you can use another piece of wood, or thick cloth, to cover the top of the frames you've checked. It can mean a bit of juggling, but it'll keep rain out and heat in, and will put your mind at rest.

I've got acrylic crownboards, so can get a rough idea of what's going on inside the hive without opening it. I also keep a slab on insulation beneath the roof - some offcuts of Kingspan I got from a building site.

 

[scuttlefish]

Hi guys. Due to the non stop rain we have been having I have not had a chance to look in on my hive in over 2 weeks, and it looks set to continue like so. I have been feeding them 1:1 sugar and they have been guzzling it down and outside the hive everything looks fairly normal. They are a recently hived nuc (approx 6 weeks ago) so I want them to keep drawing out the new comb - when I last saw them they still had 5 empty frames to draw. Basically my question is at what point do I need to brave the weather and just go ahead with an inspection? There is the odd break in the showers but the sky is always threatening and as I work fairly long hours I can't just go at the drop of a hat.

Some summer

Have you got one of those big garden parasols? If you really do need to inspect you could put that up over the hive to keep the rain off if it starts while you have the hive open.

 

[parkranger]

It's unfortunate but necessary! There is a common denominator in almost all the unpleasant posts on this forum and maybe a cooling off period will be used as a time to reflect.
I hope so because there is a wealth of expertise there, if only it could be shared in the proper manner.

 

[jackbee]

It's unfortunate but necessary! There is a common denominator in almost all the unpleasant posts on this forum and maybe a cooling off period will be used as a time to reflect.
I hope so because there is a wealth of expertise there, if only it could be shared in the proper manner.

it's a shame when good experienced information is lost in the chaff, hope this can settle it down.

 

[johnmcc]

too!

 

[plumberman]

One week bans have been issued to two members in this thread.

If anyone has a problem with my decision please pm me and we can discuss it.

Hoorah. This was all becoming very tiresome.

 

[Chris Luck]

I've never looked in some of my hives in I don't know how many years.

Not advice, just showing that there are all manner of possibilities that still work.

Generally I can see, smell, whatever, enough from outside the hives for my purposes.

Chris

 

[Walrus]

I was browsing as usual whilst enjoying a cuppa at work and read this thread, I initially thought I will chip in with some advice based on my limited experience on the original question...........
then it de-generated into a full on attack with numerous consecutive posts...........

I was gonna log off and ban myself for a week or 2

I keep recommending this forum to everybody I meet, as being a very good source of information and friendly with a 'community spirit' at times.
I would like to apologise to any of my recent 'recommendee's' for the awful outbursts contained within this post and re-iterate that it still remains a great place for advice and information, and please dont be put off by this post.

I hardly post because I have found that most things have been covered and all I have to do is search. There is some really great stuff on here so I appreciate that (thanks Admin for this valuable resource ). It helps to hear different views as well, particularly if backed up with evidence.

In my case I'm very interested in the views of beekeepers with a lot of hives (bigger sample size = more reliable), but it is great to hear from the smaller operators too (as I can identify with them, being one myself)

 

[mo0g]

Hello all,

I am a new member here too, this is my first post. I have read some posts on here which go against my experience and teachings (I have been keeping bees for 7 years now), but have been too afraid to say so because I have seen views dismissed or ridiculed by experienced people on here.

This goes against all my dealings with fellow beekeepers in real life. Some may tell you to do something one way and not another, but they never criticise or ridicule people who do it a different way, even if they think it is worse.

This is more surprising as the forum rules seem to say to not do this, or am I reading them wrong?

 

[scuttlefish]

This is more surprising as the forum rules seem to say to not do this, or am I reading them wrong?

Welcome Mo0g. No, you're reading them right, and the admin. has banned a couple of people for a week for their comments on another thread, so hopefully that's all sorted now. I think the majority of people on here are a lot more like your real-life experience and will offer friendly, non-judgemental advice.

Now if only the admin could ban the rain for a week, we'd be laughing!