New renegade beekeeper Stirlingshire

[Wilco]

Would be interested to hear more about why? Larger animals are regulated so what about bees and bee-keeping makes regulation less needed?

Think about some of the differences in the systems used, what they're producing and the reasons for the regulations around farm aninals first.

Edit: this isn't meant to be flippant, but as you're approaching qualifying it's something you should be aware of and 'broader picture'/'behind the scenes'/'why are things this way' thinking will make you a better vet.

 

[PhilosopherVet]

I understand the issue with feasibility. I know from experience that keeping up with traditional farms is already difficult enough (not to mention all the backyard chickens people typically don't register.) This doesn't mean every farm is visited each year, and even on a farm visit, we take representative samples (not going to examine every one of 20,000 chickens or pigs on a mega farm). So never would I think that regulation would mean a visit to the apiary each year or an examination of every single colony in the apiary. @pargyle I would also like to see better dog and cat licensing though I also maintain that doesn't mandate a visit to the vet or from a government person each year

There are regulations for farm animals first and foremost for human health. That is why the government cares. Second, I believe animals deserve protection and regulation to ensure they are treated fairly and as humanely as possible. The government agrees to this part because it influences the first and because of changing human understanding and views on animals. For this reason, I wonder why regulation is not more present for honeybees.

The main arguments so far are all on the theme of "We don't want more regulation" and stepping away from the current capacity of the NBU. Would it improve bee health and wellfare to mandate that individuals keeping a colony have a certain level of understanding to ensure a base level of care for their bees, and understand their responsibilities to the wider national apiary of the UK. I understand the difficulty associated with this as the majority of backyard chicken owners do not register and cause a huge risk to the National flock through diseases like Avian Flu

 

[Erichalfbee]

Would it improve bee health and wellfare to mandate that individuals keeping a colony have a certain level of understanding to ensure a base level of care for their bees, and understand their responsibilities to the wider national apiary of the UK.

Even beekeepers cannot agree on best practice. Who would make the rules?

 

[PhilosopherVet]

It would have to be a group of Beekeepers like the NBU and other organizations.

And I'm not saying rules mandating certain hives or treatment/no-treatment but minimal standards focusing at least initially more on ensuring the beekeeper recognizes their responsibilities to their bees and the National Apiary and that they aren't treating the bees in a poor manner. A contentious issue among beekeepers but I am sure there would be standards that could be agreed on even here

 

[Erichalfbee]

How do you police it?

 

[Boston Bees]

It would have to be a group of Beekeepers like the NBU and other organizations.

And I'm not saying rules mandating certain hives or treatment/no-treatment but minimal standards focusing at least initially more on ensuring the beekeeper recognizes their responsibilities to their bees and the National Apiary and that they aren't treating the bees in a poor manner. A contentious issue among beekeepers but I am sure there would be standards that could be agreed on even here

The key difference is that there are effectively no wild cows, pigs, sheep or chickens. As such, talking about a "national herd/flock" makes sense. But with beekeeping, there are thousands upon thousands of wild honey bee colonies. As such, referring to a "National Apiary" doesn't entirely match reality.

This is one reason why compulsory registration would be, to some extent, a pointless battle to fight.

If even chicken keepers don't have to register (unless they have 350 birds, or 50 if selling eggs) then there is no way that beekeepers are going to be forced to.

After all, you can have a honey bee colony living in your cavity wall, much to your annoyance. Would you have to register them? You don't often get people keeping chickens against their will, or without being aware of the fact ......

 

[PhilosopherVet]

I think anyone keeping chickens and even ducks should. Because there are wild birds and even a small flock can contract and spread avian influenza. There are wild bees and in my view that makes it all the more important to regulate managed colonies to protect the wild population as much as possible.

What I would even like to see with chickens is that in order to buy coops, feed and other kit you'd need to have a number that you would get after registering and taking a class. Will unscrupulous keepers sneak through absolutely. But there are bad farmers even with regulation, but that doesn't mean we dump it

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I understand the issue with feasibility. I know from experience that keeping up with traditional farms is already difficult enough (not to mention all the backyard chickens people typically don't register.) This doesn't mean every farm is visited each year, and even on a farm visit, we take representative samples (not going to examine every one of 20,000 chickens or pigs on a mega farm). So never would I think that regulation would mean a visit to the apiary each year or an examination of every single colony in the apiary. @pargyle I would also like to see better dog and cat licensing though I also maintain that doesn't mandate a visit to the vet or from a government person each year

There are regulations for farm animals first and foremost for human health. That is why the government cares. Second, I believe animals deserve protection and regulation to ensure they are treated fairly and as humanely as possible. The government agrees to this part because it influences the first and because of changing human understanding and views on animals. For this reason, I wonder why regulation is not more present for honeybees.

The main arguments so far are all on the theme of "We don't want more regulation" and stepping away from the current capacity of the NBU. Would it improve bee health and wellfare to mandate that individuals keeping a colony have a certain level of understanding to ensure a base level of care for their bees, and understand their responsibilities to the wider national apiary of the UK. I understand the difficulty associated with this as the majority of backyard chicken owners do not register and cause a huge risk to the National flock through diseases like Avian Flu

I'm intrigued by your suggestion that backyard chickens CAUSE a huge risk to the national flock of chickens. In the backyard flocks I've seen the only way they are going to be infected is by visiting infected wild birds. Then demanding the backyard flock be caged/kept indoors to protect the local wild bird population from infection can only be considered pointless. The total loss of a flock of five or ten birds if they do become infected is insignificant. The huge commercial chicken farms have a much greater potential loss but apart from the "benefit" of describing the eggs from them as free range because the doors to the chicken sheds are open those large organisations are economically better placed to exclude contact between species. One large free range producer was interviewed and the interviewer remarked that most of the birds remained inside rather than roaming outside. The farmer explained this was because the food was inside and the birds stuck close to it. Similarly birds raised for the table were predominately indoor creatures.

 

[PhilosopherVet]

If a small flock is infected and are culled it isn't a huge loss. The issue is the flock can spread it to wild birds that can then spread it to smaller and larger flocks. That is why small-holding farms DO need to keep their birds away from wild ones because we don't want the wild birds to then spread the disease throughout the country. But we can talk more on birds in DM and keep the topic here focusing on bees

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I think anyone keeping chickens and even ducks should. Because there are wild birds and even a small flock can contract and spread avian influenza. There are wild bees and in my view that makes it all the more important to regulate managed colonies to protect the wild population as much as possible.

What I would even like to see with chickens is that in order to buy coops, feed and other kit you'd need to have a number that you would get after registering and taking a class. Will unscrupulous keepers sneak through absolutely. But there are bad farmers even with regulation, but that doesn't mean we dump it

I'm sure I don't need to point out to you that chicken accommodation doesn't have to be bought dedicated as such, neither do eggs need to be bought from controlled sources. A dozen eggs from a friend who keeps a few chickens along with a rooster and a cheap incubation device is all that's needed. Many schools hatch eggs as part of primary education then the chicks are found homes via a parent who keeps a few chickens at home. You might have high aspirations but reality has a nasty habit of breaking through and we end up with yet more bad, unenforceable laws.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

If a small flock is infected and are culled it isn't a huge loss. The issue is the flock can spread it to wild birds that can then spread it to smaller and larger flocks. That is why small-holding farms DO need to keep their birds away from wild ones because we don't want the wild birds to then spread the disease throughout the country. But we can talk more on birds in DM and keep the topic here focusing on bees

That'll be the already infected wild birds that brought the disease into the flock in the first place?

 

[PhilosopherVet]

Again as I said you can't fully enforce it, but it is a start.

If you would like to talk birds we can DM

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’m interested in the “protecting wild bees from managed colonies” bit. Perhaps we can ask the expert @Beesnaturally ?

 

[PhilosopherVet]

I had a lovely chat with @Beesnaturally starting from the day I joined. It is still ongoing albeit in the DMs and has been very fruitful

 

[Erichalfbee]

.

 

[pargyle]

I had a lovely chat with @Beesnaturally starting from the day I joined. It is still ongoing albeit in the DMs and has been very fruitful

Well ... I'm reluctant to get into this debate as I think it's going nowhere ...

My position is that registration on Beebase is a good thing ...I have had no disease issues with my bees - ever - but I would like to know if there is AFB or EFB in my vicinity - although the reality is that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it ... as I said earlier, our kept bees are effectively wild bees and will go where they want.

Would I make registration in Beebase compulsory ? ... I'm pretty ambivalent as long as it remains what it is now ... I have no fear of inspection of my bees, although I've never had a visit from the Bee Inspector I have nothing to hide.

Would I want 'standards' imposed upon my beekeeping ? - certainly not - how on earth do you set standards .... few beekeepers can agree on everything and some of the worst beekeepers I've come across are those who, on paper, are the most qualified. How do you categorise what is good for the bees in your hives and even more problematical how do you know what is good for the feral population of bees (unless of course you are Beesnaturally).

He would argue that treatment of any sort is contrary to the natural order and presumably would want varroa treatments banned ... and at the other end of the Spectrum there are those who argue that not treating for varroa is the worst thing a beekeeper can do (or not do !).

It's a minefield and it's unlikely to ever happen .. unless the Government can see a financial benefit and that's going to cost beekeepers money. How many would give up if they were faced with an annual bee tax ? How many would simply go underground ... neither of which would be good for our bees.

This is a non-debate, possibly encouraged by a lack of understanding of the real nature of keeping bees.

Do I support formal standards and food chain identification in farming ? - too right I do ... as one of a generation who at countless burgers at countless barbecues in the 1980s I live with the spectre of CJD. Do I want my milk and eggs and bacon to come from sources where the livestock is well cared for and where the food they give us is traceable ? - of course I do. But, as I said previously, bees may be considered as livestock but there is a world of difference between bees and farm animals.

 

[Boston Bees]

Well ... I'm reluctant to get into this debate as I think it's going nowhere ...

My position is that registration on Beebase is a good thing ...I have had no disease issues with my bees - ever - but I would like to know if there is AFB or EFB in my vicinity - although the reality is that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it ... as I said earlier, our kept bees are effectively wild bees and will go where they want.

Would I make registration in Beebase compulsory ? ... I'm pretty ambivalent as long as it remains what it is now ... I have no fear of inspection of my bees, although I've never had a visit from the Bee Inspector I have nothing to hide.

Would I want 'standards' imposed upon my beekeeping ? - certainly not - how on earth do you set standards .... few beekeepers can agree on everything and some of the worst beekeepers I've come across are those who, on paper, are the most qualified. How do you categorise what is good for the bees in your hives and even more problematical how do you know what is good for the feral population of bees (unless of course you are Beesnaturally).

He would argue that treatment of any sort is contrary to the natural order and presumably would want varroa treatments banned ... and at the other end of the Spectrum there are those who argue that not treating for varroa is the worst thing a beekeeper can do (or not do !).

It's a minefield and it's unlikely to ever happen .. unless the Government can see a financial benefit and that's going to cost beekeepers money. How many would give up if they were faced with an annual bee tax ? How many would simply go underground ... neither of which would be good for our bees.

This is a non-debate, possibly encouraged by a lack of understanding of the real nature of keeping bees.

Do I support formal standards and food chain identification in farming ? - too right I do ... as one of a generation who at countless burgers at countless barbecues in the 1980s I live with the spectre of CJD. Do I want my milk and eggs and bacon to come from sources where the livestock is well cared for and where the food they give us is traceable ? - of course I do. But, as I said previously, bees may be considered as livestock but there is a world of difference between bees and farm animals.

422 words later, I am off to check my understanding of the word "reluctant"

 

[pargyle]

I am off to check my understanding of the word "reluctant"

It was reluctant as I can foresee tears ahead ......and perhaps the thread going off piste,, as has proved to be the case, previously, when 'looking after wild bees' was mentioned ..... it was a reluctance to add any fuel to the flames ...

 

[Anduril]

I had a lovely chat with @Beesnaturally starting from the day I joined. It is still ongoing albeit in the DMs and has been very fruitful

Do you thinks vets should get involved?
Do vets want to get involved?
I knew a vet in Pembrokeshire who had the biggest practice in the area. He always distanced himself, from attending outbreaks of foot and mouth and mad cow disease, because of his rapport with his customers. Some of his clients lived in London.
Would the government have the finances to train vets up and down the country. The answer is no, it is too costly.
If you are registered with beebase, you will get notifications of hives starving and outbreaks of foulbrood in your area. The NBU hold disease recognition classes, the seasonal bee inspectors are normal beekeepers, some, you can learn from, others learn from you. The visits are pleasant and their results end up on beebase for you to see, we also have sentinel apiaries for exotic pests.
Treatment or treatment free? Everyone is entitled to keep their bees how they so wish, or do you propose regulation.

 

[Wilco]

Do you thinks vets should get involved?
Do vets want to get involved?
I knew a vet in Pembrokeshire who had the biggest practice in the area. He always distanced himself, from attending outbreaks of foot and mouth and mad cow disease, because of his rapport with his customers. Some of his clients lived in London.
Would the government have the finances to train vets up and down the country. The answer is no, it is too costly.
If you are registered with beebase, you will get notifications of hives starving and outbreaks of foulbrood in your area. The NBU hold disease recognition classes, the seasonal bee inspectors are normal beekeepers, some, you can learn from, others learn from you. The visits are pleasant and their results end up on beebase for you to see, we also have sentinel apiaries for exotic pests.
Treatment or treatment free? Everyone is entitled to keep their bees how they so wish, or do you propose regulation.

As a vet, please keep my profession away from bees unless as beekeepers. There are too many who do not have a clue and others who should know better that have provided/signposted information which contravenes UK law- including our regulator, the RCVS. The NBU does a darned good job, yes they need more funding but apart from that if it's not broken don't fix it. Too many people trying to find work to do that doesn't need doing.

On a side note, having studied alongside a number of American students at the same uni @PhilosopherVet is at, I am enjoying the considerable irony of Brits arguing against increased regulation with an American arguing in favour of it. The world just turned upside down!