Natural Beekeeping in Urban areas

[domino]

I don't really care what box people want to keep their bees in, or if they treat them. That's up to them.

However; I think if you live in a urban area and don't swarm control you are being rather inconsiderate of your neighbors.

You can swarm control in topbar hives.

People taking up beekeeping without a hands on support network does have some pitfulls. I know from my own experience of a group who set up bees on their office roof and regularly get over 50% winter loses and put it all down to CCD. They don't swarm control or treat just buy more bees in every year.

I did suggest they do some basic varroa monitoring, but apparently that goes against their hands off ethos.

I don't believe that natural beekeeping necessarily means none interventionist beekeeping.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

That would be a naturist beekeeper?

But I would like to see him hold the red hot smoker between his knees!

Not to mention having somewhere else to keep your hive tool clenched.

Dusty

 

[madasafish]

I have lots of TBHs.

You can swarm control and treat for varroa but conventional hives are much easier.

When I pointed this out of Mr Chandler's site, he went incandescent.

Anyone who thinks TBHs are easy to keep and inspect is sadly misled in my view.. they are unsuited to beginners who want to prevent swarming .

Leaving bees to swarm freely in urban areas is as bad in my view as keeping dangerous dogs.

 

[beeno]

I wonder if DEFRA have actually been consulted and what their thoughts on this scheme would be?

No point complaining to the council then when it all goes ape, which it will do.

 

[For want of a better word]

Biodiversity Assistant

Thereby hangs the problem!

Not all but most of these councils Biodiversity Assistant employees are wet behind the ears University trained ( Post GRAD Post Masters Or even Post Doc) with little knowledge of biodiversity and what is going on in the real world!

I met with one who was recommending to a S London Counci, eradication of goldfish from a stream fed ornamental park lake as they may escape into the River Mole.!!
Educated but blind to facts...

( any goldfish getting into the Mole would have been snapped up by the pike in moments!)

Several Giant Redwoods got felled due to this (EEEJIT) before the tree/ village green preservation society/ preservation of rural England/ nimby brigade got fired up and stepped in !
I hope you replied to the Councils in Wales that topbars need experienced beekeepers, just as much as any other form of beekeeping !!

Yeghes da

 

[pargyle]

I don't like the term 'Natural' beekeeper ... there is so much prejudice (as has been seen above) about this type of classification. But ... there are a lot of successful and thinking beekeepers who are moving (and have moved) towards a type of beekeeping that does not include some of the staples of the 'conventional' beekeeper. I started from the position that I didn't want anything in my hives that was not 'natural'. So, my hives have never been treated for Varroa with any chemicals and they have always been foundationless. Anyone who says this is 'let alone' or 'catch and release' beekeeping is sorely mistaken .. I spend a lot of time and effort monitoring for varroa, I check for disease and I try to avoid my bees swarming with all the usual methods available. So am I a 'natural' beekeeper and am I irresponsible ? Yes and No as far as I am concerned.

There are a wide range of beekeepers, using a wide range of hives and a variety of different methods in their beekeeping. My view is that it is whether or not you THINK about what you are doing that is important. There are bad beekeepers throughout beekeeping ... regardless of how you try to classify them.

 

[Fritillary]

I have lots of TBHs.

You can swarm control and treat for varroa but conventional hives are much easier.

When I pointed this out of Mr Chandler's site, he went incandescent.

Anyone who thinks TBHs are easy to keep and inspect is sadly misled in my view.. they are unsuited to beginners who want to prevent swarming .

Leaving bees to swarm freely in urban areas is as bad in my view as keeping dangerous dogs.

Just looked at this. Oh dear. Not one of PC's finer moments. - I've had patronising reactions but nothing like that! You should have had an apology.

On this thread, the urban matter and the Gwent situation are different. I'd have thought that really, any beginner must assume that they are going to have a swarm at some point, no? - And more problematic if your hive is not close to where you live.

Re TBHs - Certainly it would have been easier for me, starting out with top bars, to have at least a local mentor using the same hives. Some things for me are more difficult - eg closing up, or managing space.

 

[Russel]

Yes, have done but they appear to be taking advice and training from PC and xWT.
Odd thing we have also just been offered a site by the xWT on their farm, on which we will house bees in Nationals and have the same(long standing) in the grounds where their HQ is??

Under this Nature Fund we are involved with 4/5 LA's but only 2 thought to consult us before making descisions. We are also helping Coleg Gwent set up apiaries on 5 campus on the understanding that a minimum of one staff member at each site under goes training!

 

[Firefly]

I started from the position that I didn't want anything in my hives that was not 'natural'. So, my hives have never been treated for Varroa with any chemicals and they have always been foundationless.

Do you see Thymol and Oxalic as "unnatural"? Genuine question - I'm not looking for an argument. In principle couldn't they be got from Thyme and Rhubarb - though I accept that the stuff I buy has probably been manufactured in a chemical plant. Is that the bit you object to (and I can see why you might think that is a bad thing in itself)?

I'm interested 'cos I get asked "Do you treat your bees with chemicals?" and I don't think either Yes or No is the whole truth

I take two amino acids from Holland & Barrett as "natural" remedies, but I bet they have the same origin as my Thymol. "Natural" is a slippery concept!

 

[Anduril]

We recently received this request, make of it what you will:
"Hello,

I have an enquiry about bee keepers in the area of Gwent, I wonder if you can help – we (xxxxxxx Council) are setting up various community group bee keeping projects across the borough of xxxxxxx through the Nature Fund, where we are also providing training through the Barefoot Beekeeper (Biobees) as we are going to be setting up top bar hives.

I was wondering if there was any way you could possibly put us in touch with, or pass our details to, any bee keepers in the area who use top bar hives who would be willing to allow us to visit their hives as part of the training (it would probably only be for a couple of hours for one day), just so our beginners can gain an idea of this beekeeping method outside of the theory training. Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Many Thanks,

xxxx
Biodiversity Assistant"

and this:
Thank you for your reply, I appreciate you forwarding our request.


We are setting up hives on sites in partnership with xxxxx Wildlife Trust, where they have recommended top bar hives for our joint purposes; the scope of our wider project is to improve the surrounding habitat for pollinators and to increase the numbers of bees in xxxxxx xxxxx. We are not looking to set up hives for honey production, and would prefer a more “hands off” approach and utilise the more natural conditions that top bar hives provide for the bees. We have also discussed this with Philip Chandler of Biobees (Barefoot Beekeeping) who has also recommended these hives. We are aware of the current issues with bees and disease as outlined by DEFRA, and will of course be setting up the relevant training for our groups looking after the hives, with regards to hive management, disease control etc.

Regards, xxxxx"

I know of one TBH beekeeper in Gwent, relative of my OH.

 

[pargyle]

Do you see Thymol and Oxalic as "unnatural"? Genuine question - I'm not looking for an argument. In principle couldn't they be got from Thyme and Rhubarb - though I accept that the stuff I buy has probably been manufactured in a chemical plant. Is that the bit you object to (and I can see why you might think that is a bad thing in itself)?

I'm interested 'cos I get asked "Do you treat your bees with chemicals?" and I don't think either Yes or No is the whole truth

I take two amino acids from Holland & Barrett as "natural" remedies, but I bet they have the same origin as my Thymol. "Natural" is a slippery concept!

I think the word 'natural' is far too simplistic ... I don't object to how anyone treats their bees and I'm not in the 'never would' camp. I'm fortunate that my bees are currently healthy and whilst there are some varroa present in the hives these are what I would term at manageable levels. I'm not an evangelist for not treating bees ... just at the end of the spectrum that says 'if, under measured consideration, they are healthy and thriving, then treatment of any sort may not be required'. I'm only three years in with this policy but I know several beekeepers local to me and many more further away that are treatment free for many more years - without losing colonies to the extent that some people would have you believe will happen. But it's a hard and time consuming road to follow and I can well understand the conventional thymol and OA double which generally results in low varroa counts. What I am not convinced about is whether these treatments are actually good for all bees and are always necessary.

Thymol and OA are indeed as near to 'natural' products as you can get for mite treatment but .. I would not like my bees to be subjected to days if not weeks of living in an atmosphere laden with thymol (I'm sure they don't like it) or worse still being drenched with a solution of OA in January when all they really want to do is sit out the winter in peace. The one treatment that I would consider, which I think is the kindest and quickest, is OA by sublimation, but this would be a last resort, as it appears to have little effect on the bees whilst having a significant knock down on varroa.

So ... I too am not looking for an argument and as I said previously however you look after your bees is right, as far as I am concerned, as long as you THINK about what you are doing and what you are doing, after you have given it due consideration, you feel is right for your bees.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Both local SBI's informed but no reply??

SBIs are only employed for 6 months of the year, better to contact RBI if you want a reply.

I don't like the term 'Natural' beekeeper ... there is so much prejudice (as has been seen above) about this type of classification. But ... there are a lot of successful and thinking beekeepers who are moving (and have moved) towards a type of beekeeping that does not include some of the staples of the 'conventional' beekeeper. ...

There are a wide range of beekeepers, using a wide range of hives and a variety of different methods in their beekeeping. My view is that it is whether or not you THINK about what you are doing that is important. There are bad beekeepers throughout beekeeping ... regardless of how you try to classify them.

Tending to agree with you. There's really nothing 'natural' about keeping bees in any sort of container, whether it's a top bar hive, some arty creation, or a rectangular box made of wood, concrete or polystyrene.

What does seem wrong is that those who label themselves 'natural' claim to have the moral high ground with regard to keeping bees, simply because they say so, and because they can market their ideas and their own special system of beekeeping as being 'better' than anything else. When they also spout out that the bees love you, it all gets a bit weird, but weird has its' own marketing niche these days and can generate quite a high income.

I know several beekeepers local to me and many more further away that are treatment free for many more years - without losing colonies to the extent that some people would have you believe will happen. But it's a hard and time consuming road to follow ...

I know some too, who work hard to keep their bees healthy without using any chemicals. What they don't do is let a colony die and claim it was too weak to survive, they don't encourage their bees to swarm, and they do inspect for disease.

 

[Russel]

I know of one TBH beekeeper in Gwent, relative of my OH.

There are several, we even have one at an out apiary under controlled condition so not completly closed minds.

 

[pargyle]

What does seem wrong is that those who label themselves 'natural' claim to have the moral high ground with regard to keeping bees, simply because they say so, and because they can market their ideas and their own special system of beekeeping as being 'better' than anything else.

I know some too, who work hard to keep their bees healthy without using any chemicals. What they don't do is let a colony die and claim it was too weak to survive, they don't encourage their bees to swarm, and they do inspect for disease.

Totally agree .. but there are zealots at both ends of beekeeping - I was lambasted in my very early days of keeping bees, at a show, when I was forced to explain to a very conventional beekeeper that my bees were going to be treatment free ~ if I could manage it .. he really went off on one and told me was that I was a danger to all other beekeepers in my area .. amongst other things. Such a closed mind ...

I would not let my bees die unnecessarily and would treat if it became obvious that they were not coping... I don't think that bees are developing a resistance to varroa but I do think that some bees in strong, otherwise healthy, colonies under certain circumstances (well insulated hives seem to have lower levels of mites) can live with some level of infestation. But ... it's a tricky path to follow.

 

[madasafish]

Somewhere on the Warre yahoo group is a long rant by some natural beekeepers who seriously and strongly objected to the compulsory inspection of their hives during an outbreak of AFB (or EFB ? It matters not).

They did the cause of natural beekeeping no good.

I find the "holier than thou" attitudes risible.

(The idea of registering on Beebase made them rant as well.....)

 

[domino]

'if, under measured consideration, they are healthy and thriving, then treatment of any sort may not be required'.

This is the point, I measure and treat when the mite levels become a concern based on the beebase calculator. I know of several people who treat based on the calender.

 

[Firefly]

Good discussion - thanks all

 

[Davelin]

Do you see Thymol and Oxalic as "unnatural"? Genuine question - I'm not looking for an argument. In principle couldn't they be got from Thyme and Rhubarb - though I accept that the stuff I buy has probably been manufactured in a chemical plant. Is that the bit you object to (and I can see why you might think that is a bad thing in itself)?

I'm interested 'cos I get asked "Do you treat your bees with chemicals?" and I don't think either Yes or No is the whole truth

I take two amino acids from Holland & Barrett as "natural" remedies, but I bet they have the same origin as my Thymol. "Natural" is a slippery concept!

My answer is "I only treat my bees with organic compounds". Because any chemist will tell you organic means carbon based, and nothing to do with hugging trees.

 

[madasafish]

My answer is "I only treat my bees with organic compounds". Because any chemist will tell you organic means carbon based, and nothing to do with hugging trees.

All my hives are made from organic compounds. That includes the polyhive: which of course is made totally from the remains of millions of years old living things.

Oil is very organic...it's old, nothing living has been chopped down ... (sits back and waits for storm....)

 

[Finman]

My answer is "I only treat my bees with organic compounds". Because any chemist will tell you organic means carbon based, and nothing to do with hugging trees.

Yeah. Not with iron hammer.... What are those non organic compouds what you could use?