National hive

[wightbees]

I know the issue with getting 12 frames in them but what was the original idea with these hives ? Surely it wasn't intended to be such a squeeze to get 12 frames in there, or was that never the plan? Or was the original frame sizing different?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I know the issue with getting 12 frames in them but what was the original idea with these hives ? Surely it wasn't intended to be such a squeeze to get 12 frames in there, or was that never the plan? Or was the original frame sizing different?

You're not meant to put twelve frames into them - eleven and a dummy board if you're using Hoffman's

 

[wightbees]

But was that how it was intended when first build as a double wall hive?

 

[Quis Custodiet]

I know the issue with getting 12 frames in them but what was the original idea with these hives ? Surely it wasn't intended to be such a squeeze to get 12 frames in there, or was that never the plan? Or was the original frame sizing different?

Wider frames were used originally in the hive.

 

[wightbees]

Do you have any reference? I'm interested in the original idea. Many thanks

 

[Little John]

BS1300-1960:

Total width 18+1/8"

11x 1.5" frames = 16.5"

Add 2x 3/4" walls (1.5") = 18"

Leaving 1/8" clearance.

LJ

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Do you have any reference? I'm interested in the original idea. Many thanks

I'm sorry but I cannot recall where I read it, it was a long time ago and the details now escape me. My recollection is that it was well documented and there was no reason not to treat it as being accurate. The dadant hive has frames which are 1 1/2" wide, perhaps this was the original national size?

PS. just seen Little John's post.....he may well have cracked it!

 

[wightbees]

Is there a reason why the 1.5 frame size is not preferred?
Thanks for the input also: )

 

[yeogi75]

dave chushmans site has old frame sizes

 

[Little John]

Is there a reason why the 1.5 frame size is not preferred?
Thanks for the input also: )

1.5" was popular many years ago, and is still recommended for some hives (Dadant, I think).

The 35mm Hoffman frames that just about every supplier sells these days is a compromise between brood spacing and stores spacing - so arguably it's not an ideal spacing for either.

Spacing also depends on bee size (as does the 'bee-space' itself) as bees draw combs using their bodies as measurement templates - so - 'natural'-sized 4.9mm bees tend to fair better with 32mm spacing, and 5.4mm bees on 35mm.

Frame spacing is a hugely controversial topic - there are several sites on the web where it's discussed ad nauseum - Michael Bush's is one that comes to mind.
LJ

 

[Fusion_power]

Wider spacing (38 mm) has room for an extra layer of bees between brood frames. This reduces the brood volume that a given size cluster can cover. There is a subtle effect that bees on 38 mm do not swarm as early as bees with narrower spacing because brood rearing is delayed. With the right flow conditions, this delayed building of queen cells to swarm can get the colony into the main flow at which time they will abandon any thought of swarming.

Narrow spacing (31 mm) squeezes the bees down so that a given size cluster of bees can cover about 25% more comb surface. This allows the cluster to expand faster and spring buildup to proceed at a faster pace compared to 38 mm. The net effect is that bees reach swarm strength 2 to 4 weeks earlier than with wide spacing.

Casual evaluation of spacing can easily conclude that narrow spacing causes swarming missing that bees build up earlier and become strong enough to take advantage of early fruit bloom and make a crop from OSR and other early blooms.

There are a quite a few other differences affected by comb spacing. This is why there frame spacing is such a controversial topic.

 

[Little John]

When people first take up beekeeping, they seek - not unreasonably - some certainty in what is in reality an imprecise activity, for beekeeping is just as much an art and a craft as a science. And so there often follows a search for 'The' perfect hive, and 'The' best approach to adopt, and so on ... as if such things actually exist.

The bee-space and frame spacing, for example, are so often cited with certainty as being singular fixed values, whereas they are more usefully viewed as being ranges of values, in part to reflect varying bee-sizes, but also empirically-discovered best practice.

Fusion_Power - thanks for explaining the thinking behind the 38mm spacing - I knew that wider spacing was often recommended, but didn't know exactly why. Appreciated.
LJ

 

[Beefriendly]

The development of the National Hive and the improved modified National as we know it today has an interesting history. It was partly the result of the British Bee Journal at that time trying to get a uniform frame size (14 x 12) and the Ministry of Ag and Fisheries trying to get the UK onto a standard hive. The original, double walled on one side with fingertip lifts was made with 7/8 inch timber. Two world wars and the timber shortage caused it to be single walled and made with 3/4 inch timber with a recessed lift. Making it cheaper and lighter.
In true bee keeping fashion not everyone agreed on the frame size and so Simmins went off and developed the Commercial hive for his 16 x 10 frames...and in good old Scottish frugality the Smith hive was developed which is the same internal size but with a short lug on the frames.

 

[masterBK]

The WBC and National hive (original and the modified one we use today) was designed assuming the use of metal ends for frame spacing.

 

[wightbees]

Thank you for the info even more to think about now but that's what makes keeping bees so interesting : ) I didn't think this hive was built with the intention of using dummy board, thought there had to be more to it.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

The metal ends / spacers MBK refers to above were fitted on the lugs (originally ears) of the frame ....thus the need for long lugs. I think these spacers were made of cast iron. The frames in the Irish CDB hive had the lug ends shaped into arrowheads for spacing.
These were Abbot frames, named after the manufacturer.

 

[Beefriendly]

The WBC

Was the cheap mans version of Cowans rather large double walled hive, meant to be filled with cork chippings (or the like) for winter insulation (polystyrene hadn't been invented then). The WBC was designed with the outers to made directly from the wooden planks of fruit boxes used for transporting....fruit... from greengrocers. Most of the these hive designs date back to the late 1800's (national excepted) so it's amazing how advanced beekeeping has become since then

 

[Beefriendly]

The frames in the Irish CDB hive had the lug ends shaped into arrowheads for spacing.
These were Abbot frames, named after the manufacturer.

Interesting. Do you know of any internet source of pictures for these. I'd (wrongly) assumed these first metal spacers were similar to the Yorkshire metal spacers that fit on the side bars of the frames.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Interesting. Do you know of any internet source of pictures for these. I'd (wrongly) assumed these first metal spacers were similar to the Yorkshire metal spacers that fit on the side bars of the frames.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of a source of photos, but they must be some somewhere. I used to have one or two such frames, but woodworm found them and they were consigned to the flames. I recollect them quite well, they were made from extremely light wood; a very bare 1/4". Along the underside of the top bar there was a groove for foundation, one side of which was square and the other side was bevelled. Into this groove fitted a long strip of wood with a corresponding shape....it was called a wedge! Might explain where the rectangular in section strip found in modern frames gets it's name.