National 14x12 brood box used as a super

[bustergrimes]

Has anyone ever tried using a 14x12 brood box as a super? Besides the obvious drawback of it being heavier, what are the pros / cons? I'd be interested to hear the members opinions.

Cheers

 

[Luminos]

Would the frames fit in an extractor?

 

[domino]

Why would you, surely it makes inspections a pain the arse?

As above you may struggle to get the honey out.

 

[enrico]

They are the size they are for ease!

 

[oliver90owner]

Not just 'tried', but actually done it, but not often.

Superb for getting foundation drawn completely and evenly on a good OSR flow. They will fit my 9 frame radial extractor with the tangential screens fitted.

Down sides? Heavy, extracting (not that much longer, but turning makes it a bear and only three at a time, but soon fills the extractor!), often wouldn't get filled completely at other times?

 

[bustergrimes]

Thanks for that - all makes complete sense so far. Supers are the size they are for the beekeepers benefit as they're easier to manipulate. But what about the bees? Do you know if the bees would have any problems with having 1 big brood box for storing honey rather than 2 little supers?

 

[oliver90owner]

Both broods and supers can be any size you choose. It is just that the BS National has three sizes of box. Common sense usually dictates in the choice of which ones to go for, but some say he died years ago.

 

[beebopalula]

I have used 14x12 as supers too, mainly to get them drawn out as per RAB's reply.

 

[Little John]

It was once 'common sense' that the earth was flat, that diseases were caused by maliferous odours, and that electromagnetic and gravitational forces relied upon the aether for their transmission.

Maybe it's not so wise to raise 'the common sense' up onto a pedestal ?

LJ

 

[Skyhook]

Downsides- 1) Awkward to extract 2) likely to get part filled/part capped frames. 3) A big cold empty box to put on a hive. Ok for a big colony in a good flow in warm weather, but otherwise making things hard for them.

Upsides- cant think of one.

.

 

[itma]

Downsides- 1) Awkward to extract 2) likely to get part filled/part capped frames. 3) A big cold empty box to put on a hive. Ok for a big colony in a good flow in warm weather, but otherwise making things hard for them.

Upsides- cant think of one.

But the OP seems to think there might be an advantage "to the bees".
Perhaps he could explain his conjecture?

 

[REDWOOD]

It was once 'common sense' that the earth was flat, that diseases were caused by maliferous odours, and that electromagnetic and gravitational forces relied upon the aether for their transmission.

Maybe it's not so wise to raise 'the common sense' up onto a pedestal ?

LJ

it's common sense not to poke your finger in the fire
you can't teach it, your either born with it or not

 

[adrian wilford]

its a waste of another hive, dont bother

 

[Graham40]

I use 4 types of frame, as brood comb,
BS brood, National commercial, Langstroth and the 14x12 BS frame.

Each has draw backs, and it really depends on your apiary as to which suits the site best.

You might think that the 14x12 box is a big empty space to fill, well that might very well be true, however heat rises, now consider the Langstroth box just as big but its long there is no benefit from the heat below on a langstroth frame, however it does allow the colony to cluster on fewer frames but the same go's for the 14x12.

In winter I remove the outer bars anyway it does not bother me if they haven't drawn them out fully. In summer the 14x12 gives extra room important on oilseed rape as it allows the brood nest just that extra room and delays the inevitable swarm to the end of the crop. However I have been caught out this year as I operate double brood chambers Im overwintering one stock on a 14x12 and its BS brood box it was to late to sort it out when they returned from the Heather, I haven't seen any ill effects so far there are lots of bees in this hive and it looks good so I'm leaving well alone until March.

Lots of beekeepers use brood and a half anyway so there's no differance in area and less messing around in spring inverting the brood box.

Polystyrene 14x12's are available so if you want to insulate them you can.

The reason I don't use the commercial so much is the short lugs if you think its hard finding a queen on a 14x12 don't try a commercial frame its a vast area to check over.
The same reason gos for the langstroth, however I keep these as they are narrower than a national and I can pack a National and a Langstroth together in the back of the Van easier than two Nationals. I have BS converter box's for the langstroth supers so all my supers use BS frames.

I also have a struggle getting the Langstroths moving (beewise) in spring they are slow getting into the supers, yet a 14x12 seems to work better! The person responsible for selling me the Langstroths - yes it was you Tony - has returned to using Smiths!! I will persevere with the Langstroth for the moment but if the 14x12 keeps out performing them... it'll be the bonfire for them

 

[PBee]

The reason I don't use the commercial so much is the short lugs if you think its hard finding a queen on a 14x12 don't try a commercial frame its a vast area to check over.

Are they not broadly similar in size - the 14x12 being slightly bigger?

 

[Graham40]

National

14 x 12” – 13 7/16” x 11 ½”


Langstroth Beehive Dimensions

Deep – 16 ¾” 8 5/8”


Commercial Beehive Dimensions
Deep – 16” x 9 ½”

the commercial has short ears difficult to handle with a full frame of bees I have a swivel stand to rest them in for examination, with the 14x12 i have more control over the frame from the start - a better grip on it by the lugs. The commercial frame is bigger than the langstroth!!

As for extracting the 14x12 frame I wouldn't try oilseedrape in a brood frame can be difficult in just the standard size any candying and the frame will blow itself apart in the extractor, I keep a close eye on the normal frames when Im extracting. My old extractor will not take a 14x12 frame anyway, so I remove them from the hive and use them for winter feed. in the june gap I feed syrup heavily and get my new combs drawn out while we're waiting for the clover to kick in, any excess stores get redistributed, i.e. if they just hoard the syrup they get another fresh frame to draw out in the centre of the hive mum has to lay somewhere so they get on with drawing it out.

 

[itma]

Are they not broadly similar in size - the 14x12 being slightly bigger?

As Graham can confirm when he multiplies out his numbers, there is no "vast area" difference.

But I'm not sure that Graham has noticed that this thread is NOT about the desirability of running 14x12 *brood*, but its actually on the rather strange (IMHO daft) idea of deliberately running a 14x12 as a *super*.

 

[AndyTh]

Into The Lions Den (ILTD) is a serious commercial beekeeper - he has commented on this board that he finds at the heather moors, colonies with broodboxes as supers produce more honey than those with traditional supers. An interesting observation and a topic for conjecture as to why this might be. And as to whether the same would happen ealier in the summer. Might be worth an experiment this summer?

 

[Les]

Last year whilst transferring from nationals to 14 x 12 the bees filled the 14 x 12 with stores instead of brood – now I ain’t weak but I wouldn’t like to lug them boxes to get them extracted.

 

[Graham40]

one 14x12 on the bottom second in place as a supper, or double brood box