more late Varroa? Second treatment?

[Nic Rhodes]

I think the saying is Rab you can take a horse to water.....

 

[Nic Rhodes]

had a quick calc on numbers. If we had 2000 mites in end of August and our Apiguard is 75% efficient (which isn't unresonable for say Cumbria I would have thought) that takes mites down to 500 for end of sept. That is 1000 mites end of oct and back upto 2000 mites again for end of November (basically now). If the efficiency is 95% then 2000 goes to 100 then to 200 then to 400 now. Very different numbers.

 

[peteinwilts]

Hence your suggestion of starter strips rather than my plan - empty frames - to keep exposure to a minimum, replace often etc..

edit - sorry not empty frames but leave an inch at the top.

a chap on this forum (who does not post a great deal) uses strips of cardboard (cornflake packet) as a starter for his frames, rather than a strip of wax.

I have not been sure about trying this method myself as I like the wire in the frames for support. I have never seen one of the frames collapse though.

Does anyone else do this? if so, does each frame with starter need to be placed between full frames to prevent distorted comb, or are the bees just left to it. (I suppose it would be similar to a TBH)

I imagine the same could be done with supers, although the comb would probably need to be pressed rather than spun.

... maybe I should have started a new thread!!

 

[jezd]

But Nic, are you assuming mite increase is the same in November as it is in August - surely weather and brood size are very different the latest it gets and so their numbers cant increase as they did in the Summer months?

 

[Nic Rhodes]

my bees stopped brooding in sept (because of Thymol) but are hard at it again (and needed as my numbers were low because of september) but it isn't about my bees, they are fine wrt varroa.

 

[Skyhook]

But Nic, are you assuming mite increase is the same in November as it is in August - surely weather and brood size are very different the latest it gets and so their numbers cant increase as they did in the Summer months?

In that situation you will get more than 1 mite going into each cell, so you get some very pathetic bees emerging, but the mites make it through.

 

[Finman]

Two weeks ago, 20 degrees, I opened the hive to have a quick look - all OK.
wait.

two days ago -13C, now +5C

 

[oliver90owner]

surely weather and brood size are very different

I agree with skyhook.

I doubt the weather has much effect on varroa in the brood nest. All they require is a brood cell about to be capped. About a couple of weeks later, they are doing the same again.

Five varroa in a huge colony in warm weather will breed at the same rate as five varroa in a reasonably sized colony in cooler weather? Same for 50 mites or 500 mites. So the mite breeding rate is not bee colony size regulated, but infestation regulated. Only interupted by a period of very little or no brood. Finman described the lead-up to colony collapse admirably, somewhere, recently.

 

[itma]

Varroa reproduction rate depends on (amongst other factors) the amount of Drone brood present. (Managing Varroa, pages 9 and 5)
More drone brood means more varroa because they get more cycles in the longer time that the drone cells are capped.

Hasn't the unseasonable weather meant more drones for longer than usual?
And wouldn't that mean more varroa increase than a usual Autumn?

 

[Hivemaker.]

And then of course there can be more infection from drifting workers/drones,robbing out other weak hives,bee to bee transfer while foraging in good weather.

 

[Baggyone]

Is there any details on the use of thymol syrup against the varroa mite anywhere? After reading the stuff recently on thymol syrup in relation to nosema, it makes great sense to use it. I was too late this year but next year my orders already ready for a tub.

So does the stuff have any action on varroa. Maybe not a huge kill rate but enough just to make it an extra in the armoury.

Baggy

 

[Nic Rhodes]

i would not rely on it!

 

[Skyhook]

Is there any details on the use of thymol syrup against the varroa mite anywhere? After reading the stuff recently on thymol syrup in relation to nosema, it makes great sense to use it. I was too late this year but next year my orders already ready for a tub.

So does the stuff have any action on varroa. Maybe not a huge kill rate but enough just to make it an extra in the armoury.

Baggy

I wonder if someone has got confused reading about PH's 2 thymol recipes?

 

[drstitson]

If you look on the web (eg beesource) there is discussion about thymolated syrup being effective against varroa - idea being that first batch(es) of larvae get fed the syrup and the mites then get a dose in the cells.

presume same would apply to late brood (eg this year) being raised after thymol treatment AND after syrup feeding. i suppose problem would be anyone with fondant on will be supplying the bees with unindoctrinated sugar.

anyone out there who has fed fully thymolated syrup in sept and not used fondant yet like to comment on recent mite drops?

"I wonder if someone has got confused reading about PH's 2 thymol recipes?"

If you read HM comments with the recipes there is no confusion - anti-varroa activity is inferred for thymolated syrup:
"Also as a slight side note i have detected no varroa mites in the vast majority of hives,very very few in some,and no oxalic used at all,reminds me of pre 2002 when i always fed thymolated syrup."

 

[itma]

If you look on the web (eg beesource) there is discussion about thymolated syrup being effective against varroa - idea being that first batch(es) of larvae get fed the syrup and the mites then get a dose in the cells.
...

Hivemaker posted a link to a US research paper (on another varroa thread on here) which tracked Thymol (and Carvacrol - a very similar compound) into the actual larvae.
However, the syrup-based feed Thymol peaked well before capping the brood.
Intriguingly, one of their tests with Carvacrol fed with a protein mix, showed the larval Carvacrol peaking just before cell capping. This indicates that there might be the prospect of a new line of attack against the varroa's safe breeding hideaway in the capped cell. But - "more work needs to be done".

A very interesting read (pdf) http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/35712/1/IND44273329.pdf

 

[drstitson]

ITMA - that paper specifically DID NOT look at just thymolated syrup - the only PURE thymol was in the liquid protein feed arm - a major flaw in the methodology if you ask me. have yet to receive a reply from author to explain the lapse. agreed that thymol IS present in origanum oil at varying levels BUT the authors do not describe quantitating how much was actually present in the oil they used. There is no reference to carvacrol:thymol ratios either for the oils or the larval samples of various ages. If i were reviewing the paper for publication i would have bounced it back to authors for clarification/amendments.

"In Experiment 1, treatment colonies were fed a sugar syrup diet
(1:1 sucrose: water w/w) supplemented with either origanum oil or
two formulations of 2-heptanone.

For Experiment 2, treatment colonies were fed a liquid protein diet mixture that contained either
origanum oil, cinnamon oil, thymol, or the two formulations of 2-
heptanone."

 

[Finman]

If you look on the web (eg beesource) there is discussion about thymolated syrup being effective against varroa - idea being that first batch(es) of larvae get fed the syrup and the mites then get a dose in the cells.

there is no that kind of influence with thymol syrup. It affects only to nosema.

There is no other stuffs which make larvae poisonous to mites. Day dreams.

Varroa control would be really easy if that happens.

 

[drstitson]

just checked facts on web - confirming my thoughts:

thyme oil has upto 75% carvacrol whilst origanum oil has 80-95% carvacrol.

so even if the rest of origanum EO is thymol that gives a >10:1 ratio which is on par with what the authors found in older larvae given origanum oil in syrup.

 

[itma]

ITMA - that paper specifically DID NOT look at thymolated syrup - the only thymol was in the liquid protein feed arm - a major flaw in the methodology if you ask me. have yet to receive a reply from author to explain the lapse.

You are absolutely correct - the only syrup/thymol was from the syrup/origanum oil trial. (Which I think I mentioned at the time - oh dear!) And from that it was the Carvacrol that showed through, peaking on Day4. (Don't know whether Thymol coming through pro rata would have been detectable in their syrup trial.)
Mea Culpa!

Perhaps you could follow up with asking about whether there is a suspected difference between Thymol and Carvacrol transport, whether they would try adding an emulsifier (like Lecithin) to their syrup, Carvacrol/Varroa efficacy/beesafe testing, and Thymol/protein feeding since these would seem to be some of the interesting avenues opened up by their 2009 research paper?

 

[drstitson]

"Supplements were incorporated into both diets by first emulsifying
them in water, and then by adding measured amounts to 1:1 sugar:
water (w/w) solution to obtain a final concentration of 0.06% for each
of the oil compounds in the treatments."

again - bad description of their methodology - i presume they mean temporary "emulsifying" by agitation/vortexing of some sort rather than a stable emulsion as per HM recipe.