more late Varroa? Second treatment?

[oliver90owner]

desite a potential bigger problem this year.

Always a potential for a bigger problem any year, but...

What is different this year than last? How much more time have the mites to reproduce? It is time dependent, not brood dependent right through to November.

Remember oxalic was given quite early last year as the lay rate was typically zero through December due to the abnormally cold weather for that time of that year.

If you 'oxalic' in December and try to get through to the next autumn, little wonder there is a mite problem before, and potentially afterwards. That's eight months mite increase!

Next. Please can someone supply the efficacy for apiguard in the UK (with a verifiable link)? Please don't supply figures for Tunisia, Egypt, Italy, etc as they are all different (or V*ta wouldn't have separated the results as they have). Funny that for a UK company there are no results given for our little islands. Until demonstrated otherwise, I would think 95% efficacy is a 'pie in the sky' assessment! More likely under 80%

2 000 mites is a month too late at least for treatment, I would say, and if the efficacy was less than 80% (could well be?), you will be back in the mire PDQ.

Apiguard is not a panacea varroa treatment. Especially in the UK. One reason why I try to keep infestations light by other than chemical means. Think or think more carefully about it. Another reason why I don't use apiguard as my regular autumn treatment (prior to them brooding winter bees).

Draw up some of your own time-lines if you cannot find the FERA document. Base infestations on 'doubling monthly' whenever brood is present in any number and you will see how you expect the mite levels to be at variance with previous years. You might even project forwards from oxalic treatment in December, for typical expected loadings in the foraging season. I reckon the difference found will be minimal c/f other years.

RAB

 

[Nic Rhodes]

difference here is autumn was cool (lower thymol effectiveness) and winter is warm (growing varroa numbers). It is just why my varroa treatment strategy is multi facetted and at different times through the year.

I am happy with my plan, through like the idea of weekly hive clean as an extra 'tool'. I have some but unused yet. My worry is for those who have a major reluctance over the december treatment (and there are loads of beekeepers in this category). I know of some beekeepers that treat with thymol syrup for varroa as their only treatment in the year

Bottom line if you are picking up bees from the alighting board with free varroa mites on them, it is something to worry about in November however you got there. Might be worth people looking even if they think they are fine.

 

[Finman]

.

If you cannot stand weather changes in beekeping, for goodness sake, change the hobby

 

[Luminos]

Two weeks ago, 20 degrees, I opened the hive to have a quick look - all OK.
Two days ago, small bees stumbling about on the board in front of the hive entrance, some with shrivelled wings.
I waited for the temperature to reach 17 degrees, opened up, dusted with icing sugar. I spread Varroa-Gard across the inside of the hive entrance floor.
I have Oxalic Acid ready for winter treatment.
One of two things will happen: they will survive, or they won't. I can do no more except wait.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Efficacy for apiguard in the UK (with a verifiable link)? Until demonstrated otherwise, I would think 95% efficacy is a 'pie in the sky' assessment! More likely under 80%

I reckon the difference found will be minimal c/f other years.

RAB

I recall a Canadian study on large Broods that showed efficiency of Apiguard of between 68%-82% Kill, the NZ leaflets often mention the study but i have never traced the articule

see page 45 http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/pests/varroa/control-of-varroa-guide.pdf

efficiency of Apiguard also appears to be volume dependant as Vita are now registering a 25g tub for Nuc . I suspect 50g to be too small for deep brood boxes like 14x12 and commercial, Their FAQ say apiquard on double brood and brood and a half 50g of apiguard should be place near the brood BETWEEN the boxes and efficiency may be lower duty to the higher number of bees


I used from mid August 3x 50g tubs over 6 weeks and now have a low count of about 2 to 4 a week drop,( monitored last week)

Three 50g applications or two larger 75g application is not approved by Vita as the product is not registered for any variant to their licence (which is why they are going for a 25g nuc tub)

 

[itma]

An right i see what Itma is saying - for survivor rate read - monitored drop rate after treatment is finished not what's seen on the adult bees as your indicator.

I was suggesting that monitoring the drop rate after the treatment has finished is much more important (even if less satisfying) than monitoring the number dropping during the treatment.

What you see afterwards (NOT during treatment) indicates how successful your treatment was (and thus what level of problem remains and so what future treatment you should begin contemplating - hopefully none needed for some months!)

 

[Storm™]

I was suggesting that monitoring the drop rate after the treatment has finished is much more important (even if less satisfying) than monitoring the number dropping during the treatment.

What you see afterwards (NOT during treatment) indicates how successful your treatment was (and thus what level of problem remains and so what future treatment you should begin contemplating - hopefully none needed for some months!)

Yup Itma got it, it was my poor reading of the post.

 

[MuswellMetro]

I was suggesting that monitoring the drop rate after the treatment has finished is much more important (even if less satisfying) than monitoring the number dropping during the treatment.

What you see afterwards (NOT during treatment) indicates how successful your treatment was (and thus what level of problem remains and so what future treatment you should begin contemplating - hopefully none needed for some months!)

agree but would says that thymol stays in the hive for a few weeks after the tubs are empty, so a false readings can occur

i try to monitor for 3 days every 6 weeks

 

[oliver90owner]

I know of some beekeepers that treat with thymol syrup for varroa as their only treatment in the year

WOW!! Does it work? Why does everyone not do it this way? (or is this an as yet unknown/undocumented revolutionary 'new' method?). Even the great Hivemaker does not rely on thymolated sugar syrup as the panacea of mite treatment!

Please, someone, some efficacies for thymol syrup against varroa mites? We need this information urgently, so we may all be able to radically reduce the cost of varroa treatments and improve the health of our colonies.

I will not hold my breath while awaiting the torrent of replies on efficacy - or have the manufacturers of apiguard been 'pulling the wool' over the eyes of beekeepers for the last ten years?

 

[itma]

Two weeks ago, 20 degrees, I opened the hive to have a quick look - all OK.
Two days ago, small bees stumbling about on the board in front of the hive entrance, some with shrivelled wings.
I waited for the temperature to reach 17 degrees, opened up, dusted with icing sugar. I spread Varroa-Gard across the inside of the hive entrance floor.
I have Oxalic Acid ready for winter treatment.
One of two things will happen: they will survive, or they won't. I can do no more except wait.

Well, you can dust with sugar any time (every time) you (can) open the hive.
Its a treatment that would greatly benefit from frequent repeats.
And with the brood reducing, a greater proportion of the mites are going to be 'phoretic' (out of brood cells) on adult bees - and so vulnerable to simple sugar dust (and for the keen ones, oxalic). I'm sure oxalic is more effective - but equally sure that the downside from sugar (particularly considering frequent repeats) is much less.




There is also the theoretical possibility of using Apistan/Bayvarol at this time of year.
I've been discouraged from using it because 1/ mites here can prove resistant (so might be ineffective anyway) and 2/ 'weak' use promotes resistance - considering that 3/ use at low ambient temperatures is less effective (giving a weaker hit) because of reduced bee activity and so reduced bee contact with the strips.
How bad a drop would indicate to pyretherin advocates that they should give it a go with current temperatures (say +12 down to +6) due to fall further in the treatment period? And what would they do to ensure strips adequately contacting the cluster? (How often would they open to rearrange strips, or would they use more strips, or what?)
As I said, I've been discouraged from this, but others have insisted its possible. So, I'm hoping to hear some detail about that possibility.

 

[drstitson]

resistance is metabolically expensive for mites so is lost once not exposed to the agent. Accepted advice from FERA is not to disregard these treatments but instead keep them as part of your total armoury.

This is especially valid this season and if YOUR bees have not been exposed for a couple of years then an effective treatment can be expected.

The key, like anything in life, is not to blindly keep hammering away at the one thing in the blinkered belief that nothing changes (otherwise you'll wake up one day to find that beautiful model has turned into pat butcher and it's too late for you to do anything about it).

variety is the spice of life!!!

 

[Hivemaker.]

resistance is metabolically expensive for mites so is lost once not exposed to the agent.

The problem with this could be when are the mites not exposed to the agent, with regards to say apistan or bavarol,it is in the wax,and being brought into the hives by the bees in low doses,so helping the mites to maintain resistance to the agent.

 

[itma]

resistance is metabolically expensive for mites so is lost once not exposed to the agent. Accepted advice from FERA is not to disregard these treatments but instead keep them as part of your total armoury.

This is especially valid this season and if YOUR bees have not been exposed for a couple of years then an effective treatment can be expected.

However, with the advice that there's a lot of resistance round here, and a swarm with unknown treatment history, and a not-yet catastrophic drop indication, I've sugared and am holding on for the great Hogmanay trickle!
ADDED- 4 years gap minimum between pyretherin treatments is the advice I've had. Which ought to be longer than a cycle of brood frame wax ...

The key, like anything in life, is not to blindly keep hammering away at the one thing in the blinkered belief that nothing changes (otherwise you'll wake up one day to find that beautiful model has turned into pat butcher and it's too late for you to do anything about it).

variety is the spice of life!!!

Absolutely. Even if I might add a couple of additional restrictions beyond "incest and folk dancing".

 

[drstitson]

with both itma and HM.

old comb should be long gone before next treatment plus low level chronic accumulation (below effective dose) shouldn't be enough to select for resistant mites due to the expense of maintaining that resistance.

 

[Storm™]

The problem with this could be when are the mites not exposed to the agent, with regards to say apistan or bavarol,it is in the wax,and being brought into the hives by the bees in low doses,so helping the mites to maintain resistance to the agent.

So the mites don't breed that resistant nature and pass it onto their offspring?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Seems that most of the worlds supply of wax foundation is contaminated.

I tested some strips after an eight year period of not using them,waste of time and money so i found out in my area,yes they killed some mites,but nowhere near enough.

 

[Storm™]

Hence your suggestion of starter strips rather than my plan - empty frames - to keep exposure to a minimum, replace often etc..

edit - sorry not empty frames but leave an inch at the top.

 

[itma]

So the mites don't breed that resistant nature and pass it onto their offspring?

They do pass it on, but less with each generation.
Give them enough time ... (4 years is a lot of varroa generations) and the resistance should be effectively 'lost'.

But if there is continued (even sub-lethal) exposure, that's going to help selective breeding to keep the resistance going.
I don't know whether the amount of pyretherin in foundation is sufficient to maintain significant resistance, but I'd be surprised if it was.

 

[Hivemaker.]

They do pass it on, but less with each generation.
Give them enough time ... (4 years is a lot of varroa generations) and the resistance should be effectively 'lost'.

And of course taking into account that there may be some burke,(or several of them in any one area) a mile or so up the road, who know no better,and also leave strips in longer,or even all winter,making sure there is a plentiful and continuous supply of resistant mites.

 

[Teemore]

Bad management raises its head again!! I gather that leaving bayvarol strips in for very long periods was quite common with some beekeepers on this side of the water.... the message is slowly getting through though.