more demaree help pls (apols)

[Cuckmere couple]

looked in bottom boxes of 3 demaree'd colonies today

All 3 had q cups with eggs and two had drawn QCs and one capped QC. I think swarm rather than supersedure as there were a good number.

for all 3 it had been 9 days since going into LBB and moving all brood to UBB, had knocked any QCs in UBB after 6 days, so

• 9/5/21 moved all brood to UBB and empties down
• 15/5/21 knocked down QCs in UBB
• 18/5/21 today, checked LBB to be safe

They all had about 7-8 frames BIAS in LBB but still had room.

Th one with capped QC i removed queen to nuc, the other two i knocked QCs down and moved all brood to UBB and replaced with empties again

Question

how do i handle/dismantle/proceed with these colonies now in such a way that can maximise their ability to build up again for main flow?

 

[Erichalfbee]

They sound built up enough already.
I would have nuc’d all the queens, dismantled the Demarees and bunged on an extra superfine space. But then I’m no expert.

 

[user 819]

With QC's in LBB after performing a Demaree, it is time to lose the queen in a nuc.

If showing signs of swarming then one needs to act, one doesn't want to split colonies for the fear of not being strong enough or loose a great quantity of bees for a flow, so Q and a frame or three of bees in nuc's.
Remove the Demaree's and reassemble colonies as per normal, mark and leave one open QC in each colony and remember to go back in to knock back any others before she is due to emerge. Whether the swarming urge is reduced may depend on what occurs when you knock back any further cells and if they try it on if there are any viable larvae remaining. Add more space for any flow.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've never seen this happen before - especially on all colonies. Something must be going on.
One phrase I've heard a few times on here is 'maximising' colonies that have been Demarree'd - the secondary purpose of a Demarree (the first being swarm avoidance) is to have a powerful colony - there is no need to do anything, you have two brood boxes on the go, they will get 'maximised' without you interfering.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've never seen this happen before - especially on all colonies. Something must be going on.
One phrase I've heard a few times on here is 'maximising' colonies that have been Demarree'd - the secondary purpose of a Demarree (the first being swarm avoidance) is to have a powerful colony - there is no need to do anything, you have two brood boxes on the go, they will get 'maximised' without you interfering.

That was my understanding too

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Odd indeed. Of my 3 Demerees, I had QCs in 2 and clipped queen swarms so no loss of bees I can see. One, I lost the VQ somehow...

The other one I still have the queen in the LBB but has gone right off lay...only 3 frames of brood in 10 days. I can only believe this weather is affecting behaviour, in bees and beekeeper.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

They sound built up enough already.
I would have nuc’d all the queens, dismantled the Demarees and bunged on an extra superfine space. But then I’m no expert.

Thanks Dani, they are built up and strong...just really interested in learning how to demaree correctly, all feedback is great

 

[Cuckmere couple]

With QC's in LBB after performing a Demaree, it is time to lose the queen in a nuc.

If showing signs of swarming then one needs to act, one doesn't want to split colonies for the fear of not being strong enough or loose a great quantity of bees for a flow, so Q and a frame or three of bees in nuc's.
Remove the Demaree's and reassemble colonies as per normal, mark and leave one open QC in each colony and remember to go back in to knock back any others before she is due to emerge. Whether the swarming urge is reduced may depend on what occurs when you knock back any further cells and if they try it on if there are any viable larvae remaining. Add more space for any flow.

thanks for this, also very helpful....i will do so, convert to normal colonies....prob double brood given the frames of brood in them and reduce to 1QC as the volume of bees would generate casts...

 

[Cuckmere couple]

I've never seen this happen before - especially on all colonies. Something must be going on.
One phrase I've heard a few times on here is 'maximising' colonies that have been Demarree'd - the secondary purpose of a Demarree (the first being swarm avoidance) is to have a powerful colony - there is no need to do anything, you have two brood boxes on the go, they will get 'maximised' without you interfering.

Thanks JBM.
yes, and this is why i posted and appreciate the feedback. I think im doing something but cant figure it out. When i use maximise, what i mean is, last few years i always seem to be splitting just as flow gets going and end up with requeening hives during main flow...am trying to think how you 'maximise' forage force to avoid this...

not sure what i have done wrong but thoughts are

• maybe 9 days was too long to not transfer brood from LBB to UBB. These are in an apiary where forage seems to mean that they are 3-4 weeks ahead of garden hives (ive had none of this in garden hives) I have been moving 4-6 frames up each week
• maybe LBB is too congested...i have stores in there and drawn comb (maybe 1 undrawn frame in each) but ive been moving frames down which had been backfilled with patches of nectar...maybe this = too congested.
• insufficient space in whole demaree....the one with a capped QC now has 4 full supers and no more room so need to remove/add
• swarmy bees....i had to split a lot last spring but they are from 3 different strains so dont subscribe to this
• demareed too late...dont think so as only one colony had a couple of eggs in cups
• i heard someone say they double brood at the bottom.....if a very prolific area, maybe, but as many people say unnecessary so havent gone down that route

its worked v well for a few weeks...not sure how i figure out what ive done wrong

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks Dani, they are built up and strong...just really interested in learning how to demaree correctly, all feedback is great

Which is why I said if you had QCs in the bottom
I would dismantle and nuc the queen. JBM taught me how to Demaree. I have followed his advice and instructions and never had one fail but timing is crucial

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks JBM.
yes, and this is why i posted and appreciate the feedback. I think im doing something but cant figure it out. When i use maximise, what i mean is, last few years i always seem to be splitting just as flow gets going and end up with requeening hives during main flow...am trying to think how you 'maximise' forage force to avoid this...

not sure what i have done wrong but thoughts are

• maybe 9 days was too long to not transfer brood from LBB to UBB.
• demareed too late...dont think so as only one colony had a couple of eggs in cups
  

• 
  I certainly don’t look in every week. I move capped brood up every couple of weeks.
  Eggs in queen cups? To my mind that’s too late. The hive mind us already made up.
  It helps to know when your hives generally made swarm preps in previous years too

 

[Cuckmere couple]

Which is why I said if you had QCs in the bottom
I would dismantle and nuc the queen. JBM taught me how to Demaree. I have followed his advice and instructions and never had one fail but timing is crucial

yes, am nuc'ing the queens and allowing to re-queen (1cell) and am wanting to follow JBMs guidance

i wonder if i have got the timing wrong at some point, maybe the 9 days

 

[Cuckmere couple]

• 
  I certainly don’t look in every week. I move capped brood up every couple of weeks.
  Eggs in queen cups? To my mind that’s too late. The hive mind us already made up.
  It helps to know when your hives generally made swarm preps in previous years too

yes, the eggs in cups was one colony and they did develop QCs, the others werent at that stage though

 

[Cuckmere couple]

am reading through the thread below too...

i notice, i have been moving all brood up (eggs and larvae) rather than waiting for capped....cant see that this is my issue but could it be?

i think Dani had said difference is, moving capped means having to check UBB for QCs less often, but if there is a problem moving eggs/larvae up...that is what i am doing
Double brood working vs Demaree

 

[holmbee]

Thanks Dani, they are built up and strong...just really interested in learning how to demaree correctly, all feedback is great

I feel your concern Cuckmere. Also have three colonies demareed this year for the first time. Hoping I am doing all the right things but this weather adds complications I would prefer to do without.
Michael

 

[Cuckmere couple]

I feel your concern Cuckmere. Also have three colonies demareed this year for the first time. Hoping I am doing all the right things but this weather adds complications I would prefer to do without.
Michael

thanks Michael....it was going so well...just dont know why suddenly QCs in LBB...determined to understand and try to rectify tho (whilst feeling a bit of a pain having to keep asking!)

 

[Erichalfbee]

am reading through the thread below too...

i notice, i have been moving all brood up (eggs and larvae) rather than waiting for capped....cant see that this is my issue but could it be?

i think Dani had said difference is, moving capped means having to check UBB for QCs less often, but if there is a problem moving eggs/larvae up...that is what i am doing
Double brood working vs Demaree

I move both. If a frame is largely capped but still has eggs and larvae in it it still goes up.

 

[holmbee]

thanks Michael....it was going so well...just dont know why suddenly QCs in LBB...determined to understand and try to rectify tho (whilst feeling a bit of a pain having to keep asking!)

Just keep asking! People seem really helpful on this forum.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

Just keep asking! People seem really helpful on this forum.

yup, agree...and i became a supporter on the strength of the advice ive had

 

[Swarm]

Eggs in cups? I made up a Demarree like that last year, it wasn't a problem but I would rather not see that. Prolific queens overtake the rotation, if that's the case, give her another box to lay in.
And more supers too