Minimum foundation in brood box

[ShinySideUp]

I was looking at a video of the Rose Hive method and although I like the idea I think it goes beyond what I'm capable of at this stage both in experience and in equipment (all the boxes need to be the same). However in the video I saw some of the frames only had minimal wax at the top of the frame that allowed the bees to build what sort of comb they liked without the commercial 'guide-sizes' being involved. It started me thinking that if I used that method, not in the honey supers but in the brood box (I use 14 x 12), the bees could construct to their own requirements while at the same time a queen excluder protects the honey supers from being laid in thus making honey extraction easy.

I don't want to just jump in and do this as I have no experience of minimal foundation use but would be interested in anyone's views on using just a strip of wax foundation in the brood box and letting the bees do their own thing with it.

Would it make inspections impossible because the comb couldn't be lifted without damage?

What would happen if only every other frame was full foundation and the intervening ones were minimal foundation, woiuld that keep the comb 'organised' an so facilitate easier inspection?

I think I might not be making myself clear here but if anyone can work out what I mean and help with the answer I would be grateful.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Pargyle runs his broods foundation free largely and I’m sure he’ll be along in time to explain his set up. I usually try to run one 14x12 brood with free drawn comb. I wire the frames with thick fishing line from one top corner to the other side then back to the original side. When first starting a box I alternate with foundation or drawn. The bees make lots of drones left to their own devices.

 

[Jimmy]

I have used ~10 14x12 hives for 5 years and have only ever used wired foundation. Foundation strips should work IMHO but when you have a combination of a proper hot summer's day and a part drawn frame be very careful when lifting and turning frames. Are erichalfbee recommends you will need some wire/nylon supports. If the nectar flow is poor I'd consider feeding to encourage drawing out of the wax. And certainly only try with a strong colony.

 

[Madge]

I, and many other people use foundationless frames at times. Have a search on Fatshark’s website, The Apiarist.

Instead of wire or fishing line, use bamboo sticks (barbecue skewers or the bamboo sticks florists use).

You can use strips of foundation (in which case I would strengthen the seam at the top by painting on some molten wax) - or, easier, use tongue depressors, and glue them in with a glue gun. They will survive sterilisation in boiling water.

 

[Madge]

With bamboo sticks and tongue depressors:

 

[Newbeeneil]

Why the tongue depressors? I use a length of unreinforced foundation held in by the wooden wedge and have never had a problem with this.

 

[Madge]

Why the tongue depressors? I use a length of unreinforced foundation held in by the wooden wedge and have never had a problem with this.

As I said - foundation strips, fastened more securely with molten wax, are fine. (Unenforced they do sometimes fall out despite the wooded wedge.)

Tongue depressors are longer-lasting, saving work after sterilisation when re-using.

Use what you have to hand.

 

[For want of a better word]

We run around 30 colonies on the Rose system, with Cornish Native Black bees.
We use queen excluders, but I believe Mr Rose found them unnecessary?
The frames are larger than a National super, but smaller than a standard national.
Starter strips are all that is needed in the lower brood boxes, however fully wired foundation is used in the upper boxes when supering off as we use a 20 frame radial, and it makes life more pleasant when extracting.

My experiences with 14 x 12 frames was not a good one and not allowed in our apiaries!
Possibly OK with the brood factory stripey jobbies.... have in the past used foundation strips with them.... but in standard National brood boxes.
I think Hivemaker said he used unwired started strips ( in supers) but has a swing basket extractor?

Experiment.. it with either work or you will end up with a stick pile of bees and wax on the floor... especially with the long hot summer being forecast for Cornwall!!!!!

Yeghes da

 

[Millet]

I had a wired foundation frame last year that i used for egg donors to see if two colonies where Queen minus or not..rather than use the full frame in one hive i cut half of the frame of eggs out and put it in a empty frame with elastic bands ..a couple of weeks later the bees had almost drawn the empty sides of the frames down to the bottom bar but not all the way..what a pain in the backside those two frames became searching for Queens on a hot day..gravity and warm free hanging unwired wax do not go hand in hand and i don't know how folk get away with it in those top bar hives.

 

[Lancs Lad]

especially with the long hot summer being forecast for Cornwall!!!!!

Yeghes da

Long hot summer your definitely going to need Ligustica

 

[ShinySideUp]

Ok I think I might give it a go using a couple of frames without foundation interspersed with standard wired foundation frames that way if it all goes wrong I'll only end up with two frames-worth of mess in the bottom of the hive. I am also thinking that since they will now have ample opportunity to make drobe comb they will be less likely to hang them off the bottom of other frames. I think the bamboo sticks are a good idea to give some strength to the comb during inspections.

 

[For want of a better word]

Long hot summer your definitely going to need Ligustica

Stripey exotics may survive if one keeps the feeders well topped up when the June gap cometh... and that can last until September!!!

However I know our local natives are already adapted to our very changeable Cornish weather..... Raining 10 minutes ago... now sunshine.... Daphney and Mahonia covered with nice dusky girls!!!

Saying goes.. down in the balmy West... if you don't like the weather.. wait a minute!!


Chons da

 

[Parsonage Bees]

This is a problem I'm going to have to sort out this year. These 2 frames are both foundationless and sit side by side. I use 2 vertical bamboo skewers and the bar that locks in place the foundation turned sideways, glued in place as a starter strip.
Can't remember how this happened. Unpredictable results may occur.