Mike Palmer talk at the National honey show.

[user 6228]

No, they have integral floors and a common roof. I try to have all standard size so a roof from a production hive will fit on a double nuc hive, etc.

so you can have a common super over a double nuc?

 

[Hivemaker.]

so you can have a common super over a double nuc?

Yes, Derek, it is in the video.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I wonder if sibling queens affect that.

 

[user 6228]

Yes, Derek, it is in the video.

I remember something said about "bees not fighting" and a "queen excluder" needed to check that really meant common super

 

[Michael Palmer]

Yes, you can have a common super above an excluder, as long as the excluder contacts the divider and the queens can't cross under. Shim if there is a space between the divider and the excluder.

Both nucs work in the super, and don't fight or attack the other queen. I have seen one nuc attempt to supersede and go queenless. Rare, but it happens. Perhaps because there is already a queen in the setup.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Question: Do your nuc boxs have separate floors? This differs from common practice here to have integral floors ( though I use separate floors).

No, they have integral floors and a common roof. I try to have all standard size so a roof from a production hive will fit on a double nuc hive, etc.

so you can have a common super over a double nuc?

Yes, Derek, it is in the video.

Really? Can you tell me at what time code that is? I saw the video only once but I recall twin nucs on top of a single bottom box, with no common supers. I also recall seeing twin nucs with separate supers, but not with a common super. And from what I could see, the nucs don't have integrated floors. So I'm a little confused by Michael's and Hivemaker's comments here.

 

[user 6228]

Yes, you can have a common super above an excluder, as long as the excluder contacts the divider and the queens can't cross under. Shim if there is a space between the divider and the excluder.

Both nucs work in the super, and don't fight or attack the other queen. I have seen one nuc attempt to supersede and go queenless. Rare, but it happens. Perhaps because there is already a queen in the setup.

The vigour you talk about in smaller colonies seems to imply we should be looking at innovative ways to have more but smaller colonies yet still hitting the same production goals from the now limited pasture. With limited pasture is now the time to go for target yields per pasture rather than per colony?
Two colonies in the same box might suggest a solution.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Really? Can you tell me at what time code that is? I saw the video only once but I recall twin nucs on top of a single bottom box, with no common supers.

Yes i could tell you the time, but i think you should really watch the video again, as you were not giving it your full attention the first time, and may well of missed other bits of importance.

 

[Finman]

.
There are many constructions in these things. Impossible to see with video inside the hive.

Palmer's system is very common in Finland. And there are other systems too.

- One system is that if you move brood frames over the excluder, and bees do quite easily a new queen there.
Hobby beekeepers do that, but professionals select best queens to be breeded. Not bees' DIY queens.

- douple queen system exists too, but it makes not much sense because one queen can lay more than enough

- you may put a douple or triple nuc over the inner cover and nucs get heat from lower hive.

- You may do douple nucs. Another way is to use solitary insulated nucs which have 5 frames. In our climate wintering cellar is good for 5-frame nucs.

- I have small nucs and I put there 3W terrarium heater.

- You may do a mating nuc over a big hive with mesh floor. When new queen lays, take the old queen off and join the nuc and big hive.
.
- in winter you cannot use excluder as fence, because bees propably move to another side and leave another queen alone.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Yes I could tell you the time, but I think you should really watch the video again...

At 37:20 to 40:20 he says that it is possible to use a common super, but he actually advises against it. The only photo in the entire video that shows a common super is located between those two time codes, at 39:30. In all of the other photos with supers above the brood nucs the supers are dedicated.

Having watched the entire video again, I'm quite certain that none of the nucs in the photos have integrated floors.

 

[Tom Bick]

I dont think he advises against a common super but said it is not good if you remove the super and you then have to feed the nucs. The common super is an option but one perhaps he uses as a backup and at times when needed. Remember he was talking to an audience and showing them with the kit they already have and minimum extra kit you can do this. As with everything you have to be adaptable and probably does other things that he was not able to mention in 60 minutes.

I dont know what you are referring to regarding the floor but I would think similar to the queen excluder I would expect the division board in some way to extend down so as to stop a queen simply walking round into the other side will be the order of the day.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I dont think he advises against a common super but said it is not good if you remove the super and you then have to feed the nucs.

Aaah, now that you put it like that, it makes more sense. I misunderstood what he said, then: I thought he meant that it is not good to have a common super, because it would mean that you would have to feed like crazy, but your interpretation makes more sense: i.e. he meant you have to feed like crazy AFTER you've removed the super (instead of before you remove it).

So if you don't remove the super (i.e. if you don't use the super for honey harvesting but simply as stores in aid of brood building), then it would no longer be such a bad idea to use a common super, right? Although, if you don't remove the super, you'd still have to remove the queen excluder before winter, and you'd have to add a vertical queen excluder in the super. Come to think of it, wouldn't it be best to simply use a vertical queen excluder in the super anyway, instead of a horizontal one?

It is also possible that I misunderstood what is meant by "super" (meant by him and meant by his audience). To my mind, the term "super" simply refers to a hive box that you put on top of the other boxes, which usually gets filled with honey (regardless of whether the honey is intended for harvest or for colony growth), but perhaps he/his audience use the word "super" to mean specifically a box that is intended for honey harvest.

If that is so, then it makes even more sense why he calls this a "bad idea" because his nuc method is not intended for increasing honey harvest but to increase the number of viable colonies that can be used as honey harvest colonies... later. Am I right?

I dont know what you are referring to regarding the floor...

Well, I'm willing to learn what you mean by it, but I would have thought that "integral/integrated floor" means that the underside of the nuc box is fixed to the box and can't be removed. Many nuc boxes are made like that, because they are intended as temporary dwellings for small colonies of bees. One would not be able to use a nuc box with "integrated floor" for Mike's method unless you break off the floor (assuming you can), make a hole in the floor, or lead a flexible hose from the nuc to the box underneath it.

 

[Tom Bick]

He obviously starts of his double nucs with a standard floor then a standard brood box with division board this gives a good solid base and uses standard kit. He then prefers separate nuc boxes, the separate nuc boxes will make for easy manipulations and adjustments.

At times of the year and conditions right he may go for some honey as he is a beefarmer after all and fit a queen excluder and a full sized super. You are right if he would then decide to over winter with this super over the two nucs the queen excluder should be removed and a simple division board would keep the two queens apart, but I would expect he would take the honey but leave the bees enough time to fill winter stores or perhaps fall back onto other options he will have available.

Yes this system is all about raising bees and nucs for the following year and honey perhaps only thought of as winter stores or a bonus.

 

[Finman]

He obviously starts of his double nucs with a standard floor then a standard brood box with division board this gives a good solid base and uses standard kit.

Yes this system is all about raising bees and nucs for the following year and honey perhaps only thought of as winter stores or a bonus.

Floor must be so that bees have no connection to each other. I cannot see idea, why they should have.

In devided nuc box the most important thing is that there is no hole between those 2 nucs. YOu will loose your queen quite quickly if nucs have connection.

Honey perhaps....4 or 5 frame nuc is not able to forage surplus honey. If it is does, then there is no enough space to rear brood.

You cannot store honey as winter food, because then there is no space to laying brood then.

.History of developing nuc is such that foragers are few compared to size of groving number of nurser bees.

Yes, I have done this 45 years.

.

 

[Finman]

Although, if you don't remove the super, you'd still have to remove the queen excluder before winter, and you'd have to add a vertical queen excluder in the super.
a hole in the floor, or lead a flexible hose from the nuc to the box underneath it.

Easiest way to make a nuc is put into nuc box couple frames of bees, pollen frame and food + queen. Them move the bees to another yard over 2 miles, and bees do not return to to their old home.

If you make nuc in same yard, the nuc will loose its forager for next 2 weeks.
Start is very slow then.
.

It is very different to make 500 nucs than 5 nucs.

If you have 5 frame bees in the 5 frame nuc in autumn, it is very different what you have in spring.

.
.

 

[Tom Bick]

Floor must be so that bees have no connection to each other.

.

See post 31

 

[ugcheleuce]

He obviously starts of his double nucs with a standard floor then a standard brood box with division board this gives a good solid base and uses standard kit.

Whoa, are you saying that the brood box underneath the nuc boxes has a division board in it? I thought that the box at the bottom specifically has no division board, so that the bees can freely mingle in that box, even though each nuc box has its own queen.

The way I understood his talk, his method is like the image I posted in the previous page:

D = the box at the bottom
C = queen excluder
B = nuc box where queen lives
A = nuc super, where queen is able to go
green = the position of the brood nest

Is this not how you understood it?

Samuel

 

[ugcheleuce]

At times of the year and conditions right he may go for some honey as he is a beefarmer after all and fit a queen excluder and a full sized super.

The vigour you talk about in smaller colonies seems to imply we should be looking at innovative ways to have more but smaller colonies yet still hitting the same production goals from the now limited pasture.

It sounds to me as if you guys feel that Mike's method should be regarded as a year-round method for beekeeping in general, and not just a strategy for overwinting. Do all of Mike's hives have these nuc boxes, or only the ones that he is trying to make nucs from?

 

[Finman]

It sounds to me as if you guys feel that Mike's method should be regarded as a year-round method for beekeeping in general, and not just a strategy for overwinting. Do all of Mike's hives have these nuc boxes, or only the ones that he is trying to make nucs from?

Come on guys. Don't become mad. from one video.

Nuc is not "year around". It is meant to grow normal hive since spring.
Colony cannot be very long in that tiny cottage.

I can tell that douple system is not as good as single nuc.- to start the nuc.

in Finland guys do those douple nucs in late summer, when they have allready viable nucs and then they start to over winter them. Idea is mostly to sell then and earn money.

To start a nuc in a douple nuc box is not handy at all. First you need a huge amount of bees that the nuc is warm for brood rearing.



If you start in early summer nucs, you surely destroy the yield, of the honey production hives.


As you see, douple nucs is usefull because nucs keep the whole box warm
(uninsulated boxes). You get much same advantage if you use 5 frame polunucs. - and without mesh floor.
In Canada guys put 4 big hives wall to wall because they have no insulation.

And throw those excluders deep into willow bushes and you learn better bee biology.

.

 

[blackcavebees]

Ugcheleuce, not sure what type of hives you use (national,langstroth,etc) but a tip I got from an old beekeeper when I was starting off was to prepare your brood boxes before assembly - we use British National hives and they usually come flat-packed and need assembled. He advised me to cut a "rabbit" or slot in two internal sides of the brood box at the centre line. All my boxes are like this now, and it means that I can take a standard brood box and slide a piece of plywood or correx in as a divider, making two standard nucs side by side in one box. Some I have adapted floors with batten running across varroa mesh to close gap, others just have longer divider. Some have snelgrove type entrances at rear (easy to do - 2 x 45degree cuts and a screw) with adapted entrance block at front to give offset entrance. gives a bit of flexibility for future - call it strategic planning!

As Mike says it is all about using what you have. I haven't tried the common super yet, but will be giving it a go next season.