Migrating from commercial to 14x12 frames

[BeeOnMyWay]

I've just written a blog post on migrating from commercial to 14x12 frames. I'd welcome any constructive feedback members would care to give (either here on on the blog) on how I'm proposing to go about it. See Diary of a Nervous Beekeeper. In my case an otherwise potentially straight-forward process has been complicated by my a) not having any drawn 14x12 foundation, and b) never having harvested any honey (in two years of beekeeping) - and desperately wanting to do so! Oh, and c) my living next door to fields of oil seed rape which tend to produce a crop of honey in May/June.
I probably won't be able to revisit the forum for another 24 hours so please do not think that I am being rude and ignoring you when i don't respond immediately. Many thanks.

 

[melias]

I migrated from a standard national to 14x12 frames with great success last year using a Bailey change. The colony seemed invigorated and built new comb of foundation very quickly (I fed with 1:1 syrup).

I've tried to do another colony more gradually, moving frames to the outside, swapping them slowly, and it's been a big hassle. The Bailey change has the advantage of renewing virtually all the foundation at the same time, so disease in the old comb in reduced.

 

[Foxylad]

I have read your blog, a Hamilton converter will allow you to fit commercial frames into a national box.

I am curious why you did not just buy another commercial BB?

While your bees are drawing wax, this will affect your honey crop.

Not exactly sure but i am sure another forum member told be that 1kg of wax if 4lb of honey.

 

[oliver90owner]

1kg of wax if 4lb of honey.

I note the mixed units. Using the same would be a very good conversion. Reportedly often a lot worse.

 

[Mart_got_hives]

Couldn't you:
Put your 14x12 brood box on top of the commercial with no queen excluder between them. Put a couple of 14x12 frames in the middle and fill out the rest with a load of dummy boards or say some corrugated cardboard boxes with a bit of newspaper or insulation in them so there isnt a load of dead space for the bees to heat up and build brace comb in. Then as the 14x12 frames get drawn drop a couple more in and reduce the dummyboards or boxes. Keep feeding them up for all the wax they're going to draw.

When your 14x12 frames are all drawn locate the queen and put her in the 14x12 and put a queen excluder between the boxes so any brood in the commercial can hatch and join the rest of the colony but the queen can't get back to the commercial frames to lay in.

When there's no brood left in the Commercial remove it and maybe pop it above the 14x12 and any supers with a clearer board below it to empty it.

It won't be fast and will involve a little heavy lifting.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

As the weather is so poor, put the 14 x 12 underneath. The bees will not draw wax well now. When the bees start to draw it when the weather improves and the colony increases enough, swap over. Then consider putting the q/ex between the two to keep the queen above.

 

[oliver90owner]

When there's no brood left in the Commercial remove it and maybe pop it above the 14x12 and any supers with a clearer board below it to empty it.

Why make hassle? Leave it where it is, until empty. Likely it will be empty by the time the brood has emerged.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but bees don't like stores below the brood nest. They don't do that in a vertical home and would store behind in a horizontal one, rather than leave it near the entrance to be potentially easily robbed.

 

[DanBee]

1kg of wax if 4lb of honey.

I note the mixed units.

One thing that shall be sadly be missed with the demise of Fumidil is the recipe:

166mg Fumidil to 1 gallon of syrup

Ironically, the units mixed far more readily than the ingredients

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

I migrated from a standard national to 14x12 frames with great success last year using a Bailey change. The colony seemed invigorated and built new comb of foundation very quickly (I fed with 1:1 syrup).

I've tried to do another colony more gradually, moving frames to the outside, swapping them slowly, and it's been a big hassle. The Bailey change has the advantage of renewing virtually all the foundation at the same time, so disease in the old comb in reduced.

I had never heard of a Bailey change until I read your reply. It sent me scurrying to my text books and, when I drew a blank there, to Google. Having read up on it, and if I correctly understand what a Bailey change is and involves however, it doesn't take into account my desire to get a crop of spring honey, because it forces the bees to draw many frames of new comb all at once. That was what I was trying to avoid. The Hamilton converter idea and Mart_got_hives' suggestion below also intrigued me. I've replied next to their posts.
Really appreciate the feedback though, and I'll mention the Bailey change idea in my next blog post. Thanks.
Andy
Diary of a Nervous Beekeeper

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

Couldn't you:
Put your 14x12 brood box on top of the commercial with no queen excluder between them. Put a couple of 14x12 frames in the middle and fill out the rest with a load of dummy boards or say some corrugated cardboard boxes with a bit of newspaper or insulation in them so there isnt a load of dead space for the bees to heat up and build brace comb in. Then as the 14x12 frames get drawn drop a couple more in and reduce the dummyboards or boxes. Keep feeding them up for all the wax they're going to draw.

When your 14x12 frames are all drawn locate the queen and put her in the 14x12 and put a queen excluder between the boxes so any brood in the commercial can hatch and join the rest of the colony but the queen can't get back to the commercial frames to lay in.

When there's no brood left in the Commercial remove it and maybe pop it above the 14x12 and any supers with a clearer board below it to empty it.

It won't be fast and will involve a little heavy lifting.

I discussed a very similar idea at some length with Deryck Johnson before taking the route I did. The reasons I didn't go that way in the end were that it seemed to involve almost as much faffing as my alternative method, and I didn't have that many dummy boards (which granted wasn't an important reason - I could have rustled something up as suggested). This would have been plan B.
I'm going to mention it alongside the idea of the Bailey change (see above) in my next blog post.
Thanks.
Andy

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

I have read your blog, a Hamilton converter will allow you to fit commercial frames into a national box.

I am curious why you did not just buy another commercial BB?

While your bees are drawing wax, this will affect your honey crop.

Not exactly sure but i am sure another forum member told be that 1kg of wax if 4lb of honey.

Again, I'd never heard of a Hamilton converter, and I love to leaf through beekeeping brochures. Somehow missed that one!
For anyone else reading this who doesn't know what a Hamilton converter is, it's a device for converting a national brood chamber into a 10-frame commercial. had I known about it, this would potentially have been the easiest solution for me. True it only delays the problem of my migrating the bees onto 14x12 frames, but I could have got my long-awaited spring honey crop in first. My home-built brood chambers are all 14x12, so I'd have also had to tackle the issue of brace comb beneath, but I could have done that with a little woodwork.
To answer your question: I'd didn't get another commercial because it seemed sensible - particularly given my inexperience - not to go against local wisdom. That favours the 14x12. Of course it doesn't explain why the kind chap who lent me the commercial has them...
Thanks for your help. I'm going to mention the Hamilton converter too in my next blog post.

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

1kg of wax if 4lb of honey.

I note the mixed units. Using the same would be a very good conversion. Reportedly often a lot worse.

The rain probably hasn't helped my cause either, so this may turn out to be just another good learning experience. Mrs Nervous Beekeeper is getting a little impatient for honey however!
Thanks for your input.

 

[Black Comb]

I've converted several hives fom nationals to l/s.
I would have gone for a shook swarm.
What you have stated in your blog is not correct. They will draw the foundation quickly providing you feed feed feed feed. Also a q/e on the bottom until she starts to lay. One of my most prolific honey producers last year was a shook swarm. (ok never a lot in thispartof the world but relative to the others)

Other wise as you have 5 frames of drawn brood so you could use these in the 14 x12 until some of the larger frames are drawn. A bit of drone brood at the bottom is no big deal.

 

[Andre cardona]

May I ask what your reason is for coming away from using a commercial hive? I'm currently using Nationals and was thinking of moving over to commercial to give more space rather than going double brood.

Thanks

 

[tonybloke]

May I ask what your reason is for coming away from using a commercial hive? I'm currently using Nationals and was thinking of moving over to commercial to give more space rather than going double brood.

Thanks

go for it, you won't be disappointed!!

 

[itma]

May I ask what your reason is for coming away from using a commercial hive? I'm currently using Nationals and was thinking of moving over to commercial to give more space rather than going double brood.

As I read it, the OP has Nationals and is wanting to migrate to 14x12. However, he seems to have been loaned a Commercial and now has to give it back...
Meanwhile his wife wants to know whether the third year (this year) will see the first ever honey crop ...




I'd note that, since he seems to have home-built some 14x12 boxes, maybe the best chance of a crop this summer might come from building a single commercial box. One of the reasons for its existence is the simpler carpentry involved.
Perhaps, for the cost of some wood (or even ply as its short term), that might be the easiest/cheapest way.
And then migrate, tidy up, trade, etc after the pressure is off, and the honey crop has been demonstrated. Sometime in the autumn. This autumn!