Poor quality nuc from supplier with queen cells

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Pennyfold Bees

New Bee
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Location
Petersfield
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
2
I purchased a nuc from the largest bee equipment supplier last weekend. I had been very excited about the bees being available since I got my hives back in March and have been waiting until now to receive them. I used my GoPro video camera to record when I transferred the bees from the transport box to my 14x12 brood chamber. I didn't manage to see the queen during the transfer but could see brood at all stages so was not worried about that. I was surprised at how hard it was to remove the frames from the box and by the amount of brace comb that had been built up inside the transfer box. It was hard to remove the frames and in cutting the brace comb off to fit it in the hive, it exposed some large larvae in the cut brace comb (quality of photo isn't great as it was a screenshot from my video):

Screen%20Shot%202013-06-10%20at%2023.20.54.png


I completed the transfer, put a feeder on (which I'm amazed how much the bees get through) and I was planning to leave the bees for a week to settle in. I have a perpex cover board so I can look at my bees regularly without disturbing them (so glad I built that).

I thought that all was OK until I looked back at the video I had taken... I spotted what I thought looked like a queen cell on one of the frames. Now I'd read that queen cells were a definite "no" in a brand new nuc, so I sent the photo to an experienced beekeeping friend to ask her thoughts. She immediately forwarded my email to the local SBI who kindly came to inspect the bees on Wednesday. The SBI was great, did a very thorough inspection while I took a lot more photos. There were a number of fully formed queen cells which were torn down and some smaller ones that had been started.

SBI also observed:
- uncapped cells, indicating bald brood over the forming pupaes.
- wax moth damage on the combs
- varroa damage (cannibalism of pupae)
- the combs were very dirty, old combs
- a lot of propolis on the frame ends, which were well propolised into the travel box as well as brace comb.

With the amount of brace comb and the age of the larvae in the brace comb, I was told this indicates that the bees were in the box longer than from delivery to me opening them. So I phoned and sent a message to the company concerned and they responded quickly, accepting this nuc is not up to the usual quality that they supply. They have said it was not bred by themselves but a supplier of theirs (no quality checks!). They have offered me a 50% credit note as compensation (given the price was £240, that is £120 credit). They also asked me to monitor the bees for a week or so to see how they develop.

I am a new beekeeper, and don't fully understand what it means to start with a poor quality nucleus of bees. However I do know my rights as a consumer, and if this was any other product I'd return it and I know that I'd be entitled to a full refund. The difficulty here is that these are live insects which I already care about(!), and any problems are already in my hive now. Also I've no idea how I could possibly return them, surely more will have hatched in the last week so they wouldn't fit back in the travelling box, they were clearly already too constrained in that box.

I'd therefore like to ask the forum for feedback on what I should do next? Will £120 credit cover the cost of any additional treatments that I need and is this a fair offer? Should I insist on a new nuc being supplied? Is it possible to return the existing bees? Would you accept this offer of compensation and keep the bees?

I hope that I get some helpful feedback as I really want to start off well with my beekeeping adventure (there has been too much 'adventure' in the first week!)

Thank you in advance and here are a few of the photos.


Queen cell in corner of frame:
IMG_3435.jpg


Opening the same queen cell:
IMG_3436.jpg


Dirty old comb:
IMG_3446.jpg
 
I purchased a nuc from the largest bee equipment supplier last weekend. I had been very excited about the bees being available since I got my hives back in March and have been waiting until now to receive them. I used my GoPro video camera to record when I transferred the bees from the transport box to my 14x12 brood chamber. I didn't manage to see the queen during the transfer but could see brood at all stages so was not worried about that. I was surprised at how hard it was to remove the frames from the box and by the amount of brace comb that had been built up inside the transfer box. It was hard to remove the frames and in cutting the brace comb off to fit it in the hive, it exposed some large larvae in the cut brace comb (quality of photo isn't great as it was a screenshot from my video):

Screen%20Shot%202013-06-10%20at%2023.20.54.png


I completed the transfer, put a feeder on (which I'm amazed how much the bees get through) and I was planning to leave the bees for a week to settle in. I have a perpex cover board so I can look at my bees regularly without disturbing them (so glad I built that).

I thought that all was OK until I looked back at the video I had taken... I spotted what I thought looked like a queen cell on one of the frames. Now I'd read that queen cells were a definite "no" in a brand new nuc, so I sent the photo to an experienced beekeeping friend to ask her thoughts. She immediately forwarded my email to the local SBI who kindly came to inspect the bees on Wednesday. The SBI was great, did a very thorough inspection while I took a lot more photos. There were a number of fully formed queen cells which were torn down and some smaller ones that had been started.

SBI also observed:
- uncapped cells, indicating bald brood over the forming pupaes.
- wax moth damage on the combs
- varroa damage (cannibalism of pupae)
- the combs were very dirty, old combs
- a lot of propolis on the frame ends, which were well propolised into the travel box as well as brace comb.

With the amount of brace comb and the age of the larvae in the brace comb, I was told this indicates that the bees were in the box longer than from delivery to me opening them. So I phoned and sent a message to the company concerned and they responded quickly, accepting this nuc is not up to the usual quality that they supply. They have said it was not bred by themselves but a supplier of theirs (no quality checks!). They have offered me a 50% credit note as compensation (given the price was £240, that is £120 credit). They also asked me to monitor the bees for a week or so to see how they develop.

I am a new beekeeper, and don't fully understand what it means to start with a poor quality nucleus of bees. However I do know my rights as a consumer, and if this was any other product I'd return it and I know that I'd be entitled to a full refund. The difficulty here is that these are live insects which I already care about(!), and any problems are already in my hive now. Also I've no idea how I could possibly return them, surely more will have hatched in the last week so they wouldn't fit back in the travelling box, they were clearly already too constrained in that box.

I'd therefore like to ask the forum for feedback on what I should do next? Will £120 credit cover the cost of any additional treatments that I need and is this a fair offer? Should I insist on a new nuc being supplied? Is it possible to return the existing bees? Would you accept this offer of compensation and keep the bees?

I hope that I get some helpful feedback as I really want to start off well with my beekeeping adventure (there has been too much 'adventure' in the first week!)

Thank you in advance and here are a few of the photos.


Queen cell in corner of frame:
IMG_3435.jpg


Opening the same queen cell:
IMG_3436.jpg


Dirty old comb:
IMG_3446.jpg

Those frames are horrible and old ... the brood pattern isn't great either. Just compare what you have there with what my 2 week in swarm has produced ... last posts on this thread.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24058&page=4

Personally, I'd be telling them to take them back and get you a decent Nuc to replace them.
 
Take a deep breath, consider where else you are likely to get bees from after such high losses last winter.

You sound like you haven't got a great deal so far but many first colonies arrive in mixed condition. If you have a laying queen that's the first thing and her strength is the key. Combs can be replaced as the season goes on, queen cells may be a sign the colony was outgrowing its original box. Bald brood is normally linked to wax moth so you will need to eradicate this issue.

If it was me I'd be fed up too but I'd give them a chance but also put supplier on notice that if they continue to fail to thrive you'll be coming back to them, after all you have paid a premium price for an apparently dissappointing nuc.

As a thought for others it may be another strong arguement for trying to buy locally from those who you feel you can trust and asking to inspect before purchase. Not as easy to do granted but less risky.
 
Last edited:
If it is not fit for purpose, it is not fit for purpose. And they have admitted liability, so I'd push for a full or greater refund as £120 for a sub-standard nuc is unacceptable.

That should be the least you can expect for NOT publicising their name and current lax quality control.
 
No, that is simply not acceptable. Firstly I'd ask the SBI to give you a written report as to the state of the nucleus. Then I'd insist on a 100% refund as the sales of goods act is applicable. You may well be able to bring the colony into a reasonable state but it'll take time, effort and materials, for which the supplier should be ethically liable.

Best wishes.
 
I can understand your dilemma. Having waited for ages and finally getting a nuc the urge is to press on.
However what you have is clearly sub standard. No one should sell a nuc with comb in that state. You probably could get a viable colony from them and replace all the cruddy comb in time, but why should you.
BBKA leaflet on nuc standard:
"Brood:
There should be healthy brood and eggs in all stages with no
brood cycle break. Not less than 30% of the total comb area
should be sealed brood. No more than 15% of the total area
should be drone comb. The brood should have a good pattern
with no drone brood in worker cells. There should be no active
queen cells at any stage of development
." (look on BBKA website for leaflet)
I think you should ask for a full refund or replacement and put the onus on them to come and take away what you have.
I bought my original nucs from T.... a few years ago and they were top quality, which at the price they charge is what you should expect.
 
No, that is simply not acceptable. Firstly I'd ask the SBI to give you a written report as to the state of the nucleus. Then I'd insist on a 100% refund as the sales of goods act is applicable. You may well be able to bring the colony into a reasonable state but it'll take time, effort and materials, for which the supplier should be ethically liable.

Best wishes.

:iagree:
I think the suplier should take full responsability for what they have sold you. I am sorry but they have supplied you with pest infested stock and posably risked other colanys in your apery if the bees Were not checked properly befor dispach to you they could of had alsorts of probs, verry shody work and careless of the supplier
 
Saying that they had subcontracted the source is no excuse.

You're not dealing with somebody by the name of William are you?
 
Total disgrace.....

Ask for them to collect and give you a full refund.
Do not buy bees from THem again.
Next time you buy bees take someone from your local association who is an experienced beekeeper with you and ask the supplier to allow you to inspect them.
Do not be afraid to ask questions...

Who bred the bees?
was queen imported ( walk away)
Were bees imported ( ditto)

If a local supplier try to get to see their set up.... ask questions

£240 seems a lot for a nuc of ( by the look of them "local mongrels")

Did you have to return the nuc box or did they throw that in ( not a Correx one obviously!)

Problem is I suppose there are too many desperate to stark keeping bees who would bee only too pleased to get ... any old box of bees

All in my limited experience I need to say !

.
 
The distance selling regulations means you can return something you bought over the phone or internet within 7 working days of receipt for ANY REASON and get a full refund.

That combined with the sale of goods act that says any item sold must be fit for purpose and of an acceptable standard means you have consmer rights that will enable you to get a full refund.

You would be better of starting with a swarm than what it looks like you have there. Thats is a very poor quality NUC. I paid £150 for my first NUC and it put that one to shame tbh.

I would return them and get a refund or if you really dont want to return them (coz your so eager to get going...lol), I would be pushing for a £200 refund so that at least they have only cost you what a swarm would.

Good luck
 
Last edited:
I have to agree with all the above. I would push for a refund, the comb is very old, the laying pattern is not good. The excuse of the bees not being from them is still THEIR fault as you bought from them.
 
I phoned and sent a message to the company concerned and they responded quickly, accepting this nuc is not up to the usual quality that they supply. They have said it was not bred by themselves but a supplier of theirs (no quality checks!). They have offered me a 50% credit note as compensation (given the price was £240, that is £120 credit). They also asked me to monitor the bees for a week or so to see how they develop.
They're trying it on.

You've had the nucleus inspected, the SBI agrees that it is substandard. As HMH says, the distance selling regulations are quite clear and so are the 'best practice' guidelines for supplying nucleus colonies.

They have acknowledged fault by offering you a small compensation, which is probably trivial in terms of a large company's turnover, and have tried to put the pressure on you to do more work.

They have tried to wriggle free by claiming it isn't their fault. It is their fault - your agreement was with them, your payment was to them. You had no personal agreement, or financial arrangement, with the third party who must have sent you this colony.

Would you have bought this colony if you had known it would be company from an unknown 'other supplier'?
Was it clear in the advertising that the 'big company' does not raise their own nucleus colonies?
Was it clear that this third party supplier would send you this nuc directly, without it being seen or checked by the company you bought from?

There are times when companies should be named and shamed, I think this is one of those times. I don't think they should be allowed to get away with this. Your one box of bees is probably just one of hundreds arriving with new beekeepers.
 
Thanks for the feedback

Thanks everyone for your feedback. That makes me feel more strongly towards insisting on a replacement nuc from this supplier. I am bitterly disappointed as I'd gone to a very reputable national company and paid their premium price, with the expectation that I'd get a good quality product. To answer one of the questions above, it was just the bees and 6 frames in a very cheaply constructed travelling box. The company has asked me to monitor the bees over the next week or so, and my SBI has said they will come back to inspect again in 2 weeks, after that I'll get a detailed report from SBI and make a final decision on what I want the supplier to do to resolve the situation.

One added challenge for me is that I may need to travel overseas for work in the coming weeks. I've lined up a couple of friendly beekeepers to look in on my hive but that was on the expectation it would just be checking them and not having to deal with these types of issues.

To be fair with the supplier they have responded quickly and I understand it was the MD that called me back. I work in the the telco industry and use sub-contractors for some of our work. I always make sure my team check the sub-contractors work before signing it off for the client and they resolve any issues at their cost. I've suggested to this supplier that they should do some kind of quality assurance check on the bees from other breeders before the product is shipped to customers, after all it is their reputation at stake. Given the strength of this supplier, I'm sure they could say to to their breeder that they won't pay for that poor quality nuc. Like the large supermarket chains, if you want to keep supplying them in the future the small breeder would be OK to take on that small loss. If I'd been the MD, I'd have offered a full refund for the outset to ensure I have a happy end customer. Myself as the end customer would then have been singing their praises for dealing with the situation so well. As it is, I'll keep the forum posted on the state of the bees in a couple of weeks time and how the supplier responds. Hopefully it will be a positive outcome!
 
Them getting you to leave it for a week or two is just a ploy for a new queen to hatch(assuming there wasnt one). Also a credit note is not very good as it ties you into buying from them again. Demand a full refund.
 
a credit note is not very good as it ties you into buying from them again. Demand a full refund.

Good point.

A refund should allow you to spend your money elsewhere.
 
Feedback to supplier

Another point I raised with the supplier is that they should contact their other customers that received this batch of nucs from the same breeder. If they are also new beekeepers they may not have noticed the queen cells and could end up with a swarm before they have settled in. I just hope that the supplier does contact the other recipients.
 
£240 is crazy money fort a nuc. you can often get full colonies plus hive for that.

somewhere between £90 and £180 (£120-£150) would be acceptable. for a decent quality nuc.
 
lol £90 if your buying and £180 if selling haha
 

Latest posts

Back
Top