making Foudation

[Brian F]

Hi
I have not used Plastic Foundation. But can someone please tell me have thick in is , would us be able to use it to inprint wax foundation?
Just thinking.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Hi
would us be able to use it to inprint wax foundation?
Just thinking.

Think... inside out.

 

[Into the lions den]

Think... inside out.

Indeed...but....surprisingly some use the sheets to cast a mould, then use that mould to make their foundation. Its often how the small cellers got going with a stock of their own wax.

However, with a leading UK manufacturer doing the milling of wax (our own) for only 48p a pound I doubt there is any mileage doing it ourselves...........the labour cost alone would be getting on for £1 a sheet. As opposed to under 10p to have it done professionally.

 

[stevebrowning]

Indeed...but....surprisingly some use the sheets to cast a mould, then use that mould to make their foundation. Its often how the small cellers got going with a stock of their own wax.

However, with a leading UK manufacturer doing the milling of wax (our own) for only 48p a pound I doubt there is any mileage doing it ourselves...........the labour cost alone would be getting on for £1 a sheet. As opposed to under 10p to have it done professionally.

Who is the manufacturer you speak of?

 

[madasafish]

Who is the manufacturer you speak of?

ITLD's twitter feed is worth reading and answers your question...April 14

https://twitter.com/calluna4u?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

I follow it for his insights..

 

[Little John]

Think... inside out.

Does that matter ... ? Seems to me that all they need is some kind of 'image' to follow.
If you were to press a thin sheet of warm wax between two sheets of plastic foundation (with attached epoxy/plywood backing), I reckon that would be good enough. You might need to use some kind of mould release agent though.
LJ

 

[Into the lions den]

Does that matter ... ? Seems to me that all they need is some kind of 'image' to follow.
If you were to press a thin sheet of warm wax between two sheets of plastic foundation (with attached epoxy/plywood backing), I reckon that would be good enough. You might need to use some kind of mould release agent though.
LJ

No it will not....you get domes rather than impressions....the cell walls put grooves INTO the wax, not raised ridges above it. You have to go two steps.....make a mould from the sheets then use that to make sheets.

Pour a bit of liquid wax onto a sheet of plastic foundation and put it in the freezer for 10 mins, then bend the plastic sheet and the wax will simply pop off,,,,you will see you actually have a negative of foundation.

 

[Little John]

No it will not....you get domes rather than impressions....the cell walls put grooves INTO the wax, not raised ridges above it. You have to go two steps.....make a mould from the sheets then use that to make sheets.

Pour a bit of liquid wax onto a sheet of plastic foundation and put it in the freezer for 10 mins, then bend the plastic sheet and the wax will simply pop off,,,,you will see you actually have a negative of foundation.

I don't use (never have used) foundation of any kind - so bear with me ...

My understanding was that there are two kinds of plastic foundation. One which is pre-drawn, and therefore has cell walls - as you describe.

The other type - which is what I was referring to - is simply the plastic equivalent of wax foundation. This has no cell walls, and could therefore be used as I described.

The reason I believe the second type to exist - at least in The States - is that I've heard of people using it to make grafting easier. The wax cell walls are sliced away, leaving the larva resting in the exposed plastic 'dimples' which remain.

I tried once in the past to obtain a couple of sheets of this type of plastic foundation, in order to try this simplified method of grafting - but I've since discovered another method of achieving the same results (I hope).
LJ

 

[pargyle]

All the foundation I've ever seen has the cell outline raised and it is these small raised sections that encourage the bees to build on them ... I can't see how having dimples in the foundation would encourage the bees to start building on them.

If you want to make foundation then the only real way is to make or buy a foundation press ... we have one in the association but it's time consuming and messy and you need a lot of wax ...

Ours is a bit like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/1624...=1006715&device=c&campaignid=707291931&crdt=0

 

[Into the lions den]

The reason I believe the second type to exist - at least in The States - is that I've heard of people using it to make grafting easier. The wax cell walls are sliced away, leaving the larva resting in the exposed plastic 'dimples' which remain.LJ

I used to be the UK vendor for Pierco, which is the type you describe...although there are other brands too, made by the likes of Dadant and Mann Lake.

As with wax foundation it has proto cell walls on it, part of the embossing/casting/moulding process (take your pick according to foundation type).

Plastic also existed (may still) as fully drawn......called Perma comb system if I recall correctly.

If OP wants a sheet of normal plastic foundation they should contact me...will send a sheet FOC. Still have quite a bit of it, we do not use it any more due to multiple factors.

Yes you can slice away the cell walls for easier grafting, but its no more easy than doing the same with wax. Some liked to do it with the black version of plastic foundation stating it makes the tiny larvae easier to see, and I suppose that true though we never had an issue with the white.

 

[Brian F]

Thanks for all the reply's. I do forgot about the negative mould so back to the drawing board.

 

[Finman]

.
YouTube has lots of examples, like silicon moulds.
.

 

[Little John]

I used to be the UK vendor for Pierco, which is the type you describe...although there are other brands too, made by the likes of Dadant and Mann Lake.

Many thanks for explaining the various 'breeds' of plastic foundation - much appreciated.
LJ

 

[Little John]

All the foundation I've ever seen has the cell outline raised and it is these small raised sections that encourage the bees to build on them ... I can't see how having dimples in the foundation would encourage the bees to start building on them.

But a foundation press works by pressing in such 'dimples' - and then around each 'dimple' a raised area is thus created - and it's those raised areas which - as you say - encourages the bees to drawn on them.

What I had assumed - from what little knowledge I've gained, in the absence of actually ever seeing any plastic foundation - is that there are two types: one which is the equivalent of wax foundation (i.e. with a 'dimple' pattern pressed into it from either side), with the other type being fully drawn - cells walls an' all.

But - from ITLD's post - it now appears that there is an intermediate type with 'proto' walls cast into it. Such a material could not be used as I'd hoped, due to those embyronic 'proto' walls being present. It's the presence of those walls which would require an intermediate female mould to be formed, from which a working male mould could then be made. Such walls do not exist (afaik) in wax foundation, yet the bees draw that foundation out ok. But presumably incorporating such proto walls has been found to be necessary - or at least advantageous.
LJ

 

[pargyle]

But a foundation press works by pressing in such 'dimples' - and then around each 'dimple' a raised area is thus created - and it's those raised areas which - as you say - encourages the bees to drawn on them.

What I had assumed - from what little knowledge I've gained, in the absence of actually ever seeing any plastic foundation - is that there are two types: one which is the equivalent of wax foundation (i.e. with a 'dimple' pattern pressed into it from either side), with the other type being fully drawn - cells walls an' all.

But - from ITLD's post - it now appears that there is an intermediate type with 'proto' walls cast into it. Such a material could not be used as I'd hoped, due to those embyronic 'proto' walls being present. It's the presence of those walls which would require an intermediate female mould to be formed, from which a working male mould could then be made. Such walls do not exist (afaik) in wax foundation, yet the bees draw that foundation out ok. But presumably incorporating such proto walls has been found to be necessary - or at least advantageous.
LJ

Yes ... I can see where you are coming from now ... I did not know about the 'proto-walled' foundation but I think you are still probably stuck with no solution other than to buy a commercial foundation press or make one along the lines of those you can find on Youtube etc. Silicon is very easy to use as a moulding - you will have to make a former first from the plastic foundation but that's not that difficult ... good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

[wightbees]

Just done some reading on the silicone molds and someone suggest that if the top and bottom sheets aren't lined up correct then this gives issues as the cells don't match, back and front of each sheet. They ended up using blank sheets in stead... From beesource

 

[Beefriendly]

I'd be very interested in hearing about anyone's experience of making their own foundation on a small scale. What do you use as a mold, how thick is the foundation? Can you get it thin enough for cut comb? How many sheets per hour? etc.
The price of foundation is constantly rising and consequently the amount I have to buy each year is getting higher. I lose a lot from the heather harvest and can't afford (yet) one of those professional agitators....not the ones that cause trouble at public demos I hasten to add.
I can hear the non users grinning at my reluctance to use non....but that is just the way it is for me as I find the bees I keep draw faster and better on full sheets.

 

[Millet]

I like this idea and the fellow who does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7VxZVSLm4E

 

[Beefriendly]

I like this idea and the fellow who does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7VxZVSLm4E

Interesting, thank you.
The sheets are flat....has anyone used flat sheets? And the results bee side? I know they used to use flat sheets of foundation back in the early days, so they should work.

 

[wightbees]

It means they make what cell size they want, i believe.