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warsaw_hive

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A film. Trailer:



All links to the full film (25 mins) are password protected, but these are so easy to guess (or in fact are given away) I don't really see the point. For example https://screeningroom.nfts.co.uk/gr...346871465112/mail-order-queens?autoStart=true password NFTS2024

Trigger warning: The full film does feature Blenheim Palace.

While the documentary is nicely shot, you won't learn anything beyond what the 2 minute trailer says. It's still a pleasant way to waste 25 mins though. If you don't believe in the concept of local bees or are a Buckfast enthusiast then probably best not to watch it. I've posted it in the Treatment Free section in an attempt to try and avoid tedious arguments that have been done to death.
 
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Wilco said:
If it's not got more depth than in the trailer then it's pretty safe to put it in the propaganda box. Agree it's very nicely shot.

I've deleted the rest of what I was going to retort!
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It makes a case, though not awfully well I agree.

What is it about the _case_ that you disagree with?
 
The fact there isn't one and that the whole 'I keep local/native bees' concept is risible. Any selection by the beekeeper means the population moves away from being locally adapted stock- if the beekeeper knocks down some queen cells as part of swarm control or dispatches queens with unfavourable traits, those are selection pressures which take the genetics on a different path to what would or might have happened. 'Descended from locally collected bees' maybe but farcical otherwise. The 'local bees are better' concept also makes a mockery of what natural selection is actually about, especially in the face of changing climate.

A bee haver who does nothing to their bees might have something close to a local bee but even that is probably some sort of mongrel. Even the 'AMM' bees are selectively bred so are not the same as a wild type would be.

Anyway, I shall leave this there as I've been fairly restrained thus far. I hope you have more luck getting someone else to bite and stay on the line- and that your season is going better than mine is. Hopefully some slightly better weather this week...
 
Wilco said:
The fact there isn't one and that the whole 'I keep local/native bees' concept is risible. Any selection by the beekeeper means the population moves away from being locally adapted stock- if the beekeeper knocks down some queen cells as part of swarm control or dispatches queens with unfavourable traits, those are selection pressures which take the genetics on a different path to what would or might have happened. 'Descended from locally collected bees' maybe but farcical otherwise. The 'local bees are better' concept also makes a mockery of what natural selection is actually about, especially in the face of changing climate.
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The main case, it seems to me, is that bees in the UK can live unaided. There, in the localities in which they have adapted they have the best available genes for that place. They are self-sufficient.

The secondary case is that importing bees, and moving them around, breaks and disrupts locally adapted bees.

The underlying premise is that having wild, well adapted bees, is the preferred state of affairs.
Wilco said:
A bee haver who does nothing to their bees might have something close to a local bee but even that is probably some sort of mongrel. Even the 'AMM' bees are selectively bred so are not the same as a wild type would be.
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Yes, absolutely its a mongrel. But its mongrel nature is settling out over time, and would, given space, settle into a steady local race.
Wilco said:
Anyway, I shall leave this there as I've been fairly restrained thus far. I hope you have more luck getting someone else to bite and stay on the line- and that your season is going better than mine is. Hopefully some slightly better weather this week...
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Mine is going grand, despite the weather thanks. I might just be getting the hang of beekeeping at last.
 
Pleasant enough video, spoilt in my mind by too much emphasis on trying to denigrate the buckfast bee and it's original breeder rather than emphasising the work and results of those who are keeping locally adapted bees in hives.
 
rolande said:
Pleasant enough video, spoilt in my mind by too much emphasis on trying to denigrate the buckfast bee and it's original breeder rather than emphasising the work and results of those who are keeping locally adapted bees in hives.
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same old same really - it's the only thing they have in their armoury
 
jenkinsbrynmair said:
same old same really - it's the only thing they have in their armoury
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Its rather like breeding. Dogs, cattle, racing pigeons - the only trick they have is selecting parents. But my, can they go on about it.

The problem is: when you're right, you're right.
 
I breed my own as well as use Buckfasts, different apiaries of course. While the 25 minutes were interesting, the original Buckfast bee that survived the Isle of Wight disease was an Italian and AMM cross which was not mentioned. There is also portrayed a them and us scenario, I know many amateur beekeepers who use Buckfasts purely for their docility and lack of stinging. This is where the commercial aspect comes into play, they can provide queens earlier in the season than those selling as close to AMM as possible. There is also the dilemma, do you buy AMM and have a nice warm feeling that you are buying into the local bee population, which has the downside of, if the breeder is 100's of miles away, it is not necessarily a local bee. Associations want you to have local bees but, how many of them have a breeding programme? When I use a new apiary I leave a bait hive and when successful, look at the attributes of what I have caught before populating the apiary. 15 years ago one apiary had a local population of very dire bees, so full of chalkbrood and an inability to increase in size. In today's terms it would be classed as a hygienic bee due to the removal of the chalkbrood.
 
Anduril said:
I breed my own as well as use Buckfasts, different apiaries of course. While the 25 minutes were interesting, the original Buckfast bee that survived the Isle of Wight disease was an Italian and AMM cross which was not mentioned. There is also portrayed a them and us scenario, I know many amateur beekeepers who use Buckfasts purely for their docility and lack of stinging. This is where the commercial aspect comes into play, they can provide queens earlier in the season than those selling as close to AMM as possible. There is also the dilemma, do you buy AMM and have a nice warm feeling that you are buying into the local bee population, which has the downside of, if the breeder is 100's of miles away, it is not necessarily a local bee. Associations want you to have local bees but, how many of them have a breeding programme? When I use a new apiary I leave a bait hive and when successful, look at the attributes of what I have caught before populating the apiary. 15 years ago one apiary had a local population of very dire bees, so full of chalkbrood and an inability to increase in size. In today's terms it would be classed as a hygienic bee due to the removal of the chalkbrood.
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The film seemed confused about AMM, believing that the locally adapted ferals were leftover AMMs. They are not, they are mixed race, and each colony will have genes from a broad and differing spread of races. 'Locally adapted' populations are just bees that are reproducing in sufficient numbers to sustain themselves. They vary in almost every respect from place to place and over time as they take in genes from beekeepers bees and throw out the less useful through natural selection.. The only thing they have in common is that they are free living and making a go of it. They are perfectly usable by beekeepers though not all will survive for the life of a queen due to varroa (resistance is one of the variations). If you have a good few it makes sense to try to improve them, but if you want to maintain and/or improve their resistance don't use beekeepers bees in that.

If you are lucky in where you live and husband your population you'll never be short of fresh bees - your bait hives will fill with them.
 
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Beesnaturally said:
The film seemed confused about AMM, believing that the locally adapted ferals were leftover AMMs. They are not, they are mixed race, and each colony will have genes from a broad and differing spread of races. 'Locally adapted' populations
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I agree, an argument could be brought forward that these are natures Buckfasts.
 
Anduril said:
I agree, an argument could be brought forward that these are natures Buckfasts.
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I can't agree with that. Ferals are nature-built survivor/thrivers; Buckfasts artificially-assembled non-survivors.

I'd be interested to see your parallels.
 
Beesnaturally said:
nature-built survivor/thrivers; Buckfasts artificially-assembled non-survivors.
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Well, humans are part of nature and Br. Adam built his human strategy on thriving survivors (albeit without varroa to complicate his life) so a parallel is fairly clear: two strands of nature working to select.
 
Beesnaturally said:
I can't agree with that. Ferals are nature-built survivor/thrivers; Buckfasts artificially-assembled non-survivors.

I'd be interested to see your parallels.
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As @ericbeaumont Brother Adam observed that is cross between Italian and AMM were survivor/thrivers after the acarine outbreak. If I flooded an area with any type of honeybee the ferals would also change so they are not necessarily survivor/thrivers, they would adapt to the genepool. Any queens you buy will revert to the genepool of that area. I have placed Welsh Black bees in an area that I knew was predominantly Buckfast and over time they reverted to orange bodied queens. It is a false premise to say Buckfasts are non-survivors, they last as F1 hybrids with me for between 3 to 4 years and then F2 and so on until I decide if the stock needs to be invigorated, the same as my mongrels and Jolanta queens. The same could easily be said if I flooded and area that is treatment free, untreated colonies would start to collapse. We have niche areas of expertise in the beekeeping community, all acceptable, none of us should be brow beaten into only one aspect of beekeeping.
 
Oculentum said:
The film was produced by the National Film and Television School, so I imagine it was more to showcase the skills of the production team, who presumably wouldn't know enough about beekeeping to present anything other than what they have been told.
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Research is surely an important part of their training, and when you have access to the man who's probably reared more buckfast queens in the UK than anyone else you'd think they'd get the message that there might be another angle.
 
Oculentum said:
The film was produced by the National Film and Television School, so I imagine it was more to showcase the skills of the production team, who presumably wouldn't know enough about beekeeping to present anything other than what they have been told.
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I was involved in a similar sort of project. A 1 minute video for a marketing degree. I taught a Lithuanian girl sword fencing at Uni as well as my own club. One hour of filming down to a minute video and she got an honours with distinction.
 
Anduril said:
I was involved in a similar sort of project. A 1 minute video for a marketing degree. I taught a Lithuanian girl sword fencing at Uni as well as my own club. One hour of filming down to a minute video and she got an honours with distinction.
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Bit of a tenuous connection but fencing and Lithuania in one post instantly made me think of the writings of E.J.Harrison
 
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