Laying workers

[thebhoy]

One of my hives which is queenless, has failed to accept new queens now has laying workers.

To address this could I move the hive off its spot, replace with a small queen right colony and allow the flyers to return to the new one and gradually drain off these bees for a week or two by changing it's position every couple of days and then, two weeks later shake the remaining bees out a 100 feet from it?

My thoughts for doing it this way is to lower the potential of the original colony killing another introduced queen as the returning flyers will be going into a queen right colony.

Welcome suggestions

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'd just shake the lot out in front of the other hives in one go and let them get on with it.

 

[richardbees]

I agree with Jenkins

Shake all the bees out onto the grass / into a hedge 8 ft away - it's a tried and tested method.

You have to sacrifice non-flying bees to make sure the laying worker(s) are eliminated.

Good luck,
Richard

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't know.........moving the hive from one side to the other every few days for a while might just save those non flying bees. Go for it.

 

[Finman]

I agree with Jenkins

Shake all the bees out onto the grass / into a hedge 8 ft away - it's a tried and tested method.

You have to sacrifice non-flying bees to make sure the laying worker(s) are eliminated.

Good l
Richard

Old knowledge about laying workers. New laying workers will arise. And propably laying workers can flye. They may be hundreds.

Give a larva frame to the hive and laying workers will disappear. The colony gets out from "desperately queenless state".
.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

moving the hive from one side to the other every few days for a while might just save those non flying bees. Go for it.

What 'non flying bees'

One of my hives which is queenless, has failed to accept new queens now has laying workers.

Bees are able to fly after three days - the scenario: Q- then laying workers seems to suggest a period of a lot more than 24 days since last egg was laid thus the only non flyers posssibly would be laying workers or those too old and knackered to be of any use to anyone for anything.

Just shake them all out

 

[oliver90owner]

You have to sacrifice non-flying bees to make sure the laying worker(s) are eliminated.

Irrelevant in this thread/context, i would think? What non-flying bees are there?

None, I would think, unless the keeper has been adding frames of open brood at intervals. Unless the original queen was culled and the new queens non-acceptance and take-over by laying workers all occurred pretty quickly.

Even if there were capped brood in frames added, they could be removed to the original colony (ies). 4 days later, virtually all the bees would be flyers. Just a little thought/consideration re the perceived problem can result in a simple solution.

 

[YorkshireBees]

You might have the advantage of keeping bees close to home, personally one visit (ie shake them out at a distance and let them join either another colony close by or a colony placed in the original spot) is what I do / did.

Although in my instance it was an un-mated Q (DLQ) I did just this yesterday.

It seemed like chaos at the replacement hive but settled down after a bit with very little fighting.

 

[thebhoy]

For clarity, no frames of brood have been added and all (healthy) bees are flyers.

In this apiary I have one other colony but there are others who have colonies and I don't want them to get my bees

I suppose I could take a frame of eggs / brood from the other colony, set up a nuc on the original hive spot and then shake off all bees a distance away......this would possibly encourage them to raise their own queen and I could top it up with frames of emerging brood from my hives elsewhere to build up for winter. Reduced risk.

That aside, my original thought was to have a laying queen immediately however, didn't want to increase the chances of losing another queen.

 

[Finman]

.
It is going more complex.

And a new own reared queen will not have time to rear winterbees.

.

 

[richardbees]

Give a larva frame to the hive and laying workers will disappear.

I can't see how this will work....but it's your choice, I only offer suggestions!

 

[Erichalfbee]

It's brood pheromone which suppresses the laying workers. You might have to give more than one frame.

 

[richardbees]

Erica, theoretically perhaps but not in my experience.
rich

 

[Teemore]

Successive introduced frames containing larvae/BIAS will lead to laying workers being properly policed by the colony. The colony will eventually seek to raise a new queen. This has been demonstrated too many times to be argued over.

In addition to the effect of brood pheromone, I suspect that the presence of workers in the colony who are (probably) less closely related to the laying workers, itself leads to better policing of laying workers. (Newly emerged bees from the introduced frames are less closely related and arguably more sensitive to laying workers - Jim Tew has referenced the policing of laying workers by groups of super sisters in the colony)

 

[Bosleeu]

By the time you have laying workers there will be very few if any bees that are unable to fly. Except for the laying workers, and that is the plan.

You can shake them all out, let them return to the old site to a frame of open brood and some stores. Use two if you have it. The brood pheromones should suppress the development of more laying workers. They should attempt to rear a queen. But, time is running out so you should consider introducing a queen if you can get one.

The gradual plan you have is logical to me, I just think it's a lot of hassle and given the time of year you need this sorted ASAP.

Hope it works out for you in any way.

 

[thebhoy]

Many thanks for the ideas and suggestions folks, much appreciated. I do have a 'spare' queen in a mini mating hive / nuc that I thought I could use but was worried they would kill her like they appear to have done with previous attempts to requeen.
That is why I thought I could replace the original hive with the nuc and allow a gradual build up of numbers rather than go for a full shake out and mass influx of bees into the nuc.
Taking from the input, it may be a case of putting another nuc in place with a frame or two of eggs and bias, do the shake out, give it a week and then combine q+ nuc with the q- after removing the QC's.......

 

[Bosleeu]

Many thanks for the ideas and suggestions folks, much appreciated. I do have a 'spare' queen in a mini mating hive / nuc that I thought I could use but was worried they would kill her like they appear to have done with previous attempts to requeen.
That is why I thought I could replace the original hive with the nuc and allow a gradual build up of numbers rather than go for a full shake out and mass influx of bees into the nuc.
Taking from the input, it may be a case of putting another nuc in place with a frame or two of eggs and bias, do the shake out, give it a week and then combine q+ nuc with the q- after removing the QC's.......

Yes I can see the reasoning. Don't want to tell you how to suck eggs but remember to tear down all queencells there may be before the unite.

If it was me I would do the shake out with brood frame introduction and then introduce the queen in a cage. By leaving her in a cage till they stop making queencells you should maximise your chances.

Please post what you have done and what the outcome was it's a learning exercise for all.

 

[madasafish]

Yes I can see the reasoning. Don't want to tell you how to suck eggs but remember to tear down all queencells there may be before the unite.

If it was me I would do the shake out with brood frame introduction and then introduce the queen in a cage. By leaving her in a cage till they stop making queencells you should maximise your chances.

Please post what you have done and what the outcome was it's a learning exercise for all.

+1

Works for me...

 

[menteth]

great thread
i have exactly the same issue.
I have -Q with worker layers.
how long between shaking out the bees and adding a new queen?
can we add the new queen (in an introduction cage) the day after shaking out?
I have a queen arriving tomorrow.
Whaddya say?
thanks

and finally - shall I get rid of the completely messed up brood comb. Or will they fix this.

 

[richardbees]

and finally - shall I get rid of the completely messed up brood comb. Or will they fix this.


menteth,

I suggest you replace any frames containing brood with new foundation.

After you've 'shaken out'.... the viable bees will return to the original site. Leave them for a day then introduce your new Q in a cage.

any queries?

good luck,

richard