Latest from Defra on YLH

[Erichalfbee]

Sadly not a great picture for helping the public to recognise them

MSM… not surprising.

 

[Karol]

Just because one species has that behaviour doesn't mean others do! After all AH doesn't swarm like honeybees.
I'd be interested if you had any evidence though as you said "In general, the recommendation is conservation of the primary nests to capture new queens" which implies recommendations from somewhere!

Usurpation is known in vespines. However, it tends to occur when there's over population where conflict between queens results in culling of the weaker queens. Usurpation occurs early on in embryonic nests before queens become nest bound and before worker numbers increase. What is not clear is what happens with the workers that were originally reared by the usurped queen. What is known is that in about 11% of vespine nests where the queen is lost one of the workers will assume the role of the queen but she will only produce drones so the colony will eventually collapse. It is entirely possible that a bereft colony would adopt a new queen. Interestingly, prior season nests are not occupied but are frequently used for building material so it's very much about resident workers rather than the structure.

 

[Karol]

The location of nests along communication routes responds to hibernating queens looking for a new location.
A. Out of the reach of predators that live inside the field.
B. Higher temperature than in the field.
C. Greater ease of flight, since they can catch the currents of warm air emitted by the flow of vehicles.

I suspect it's more to do with trees lining roads.

 

[Sutty]

Usurpation is known in vespines. However, it tends to occur when there's over population where conflict between queens results in culling of the weaker queens. Usurpation occurs early on in embryonic nests before queens become nest bound and before worker numbers increase. What is not clear is what happens with the workers that were originally reared by the usurped queen. What is known is that in about 11% of vespine nests where the queen is lost one of the workers will assume the role of the queen but she will only produce drones so the colony will eventually collapse. It is entirely possible that a bereft colony would adopt a new queen. Interestingly, prior season nests are not occupied but are frequently used for building material so it's very much about resident workers rather than the structure.

Sounds like destroying them, with the queen, whilst keeping evidence for investigation, is probably the right idea. Or am I misreading you?

 

[Karol]

Sounds like destroying them, with the queen, whilst keeping evidence for investigation, is probably the right idea. Or am I misreading you?

Misreading me. If you locate a nest call the NBU and get them to deal with it. The last thing anyone wants is a botched attempt that sees the queen relocate elsewhere out of reach.

 

[North End Bees]

Sounds like destroying them, with the queen, whilst keeping evidence for investigation, is probably the right idea.

I attended a lecture a few years ago where, I think, Bob Hogge from Jersey was talking about primary nests. He said that when they found a very early nest they killed the queen but left the nest intact and monitored it. Often a new queen would come across the already started nest and take over.

 

[Karol]

I attended a lecture a few years ago where, I think, Bob Hogge from Jersey was talking about primary nests. He said that when they found a very early nest they killed the queen but left the nest intact and monitored it. Often a new queen would come across the already started nest and take over.

Which suggests that there is population density pressure. Not sure of the logic of of taking such an approach. Yes it's a means to attract a usurping queen but monitoring the nest requires resource which could be better spent elsewhere. If the nest were destroyed the usurping queen would be more vulnerable having to start a new nest and the time saved could be focused on finding other established primary nests.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So how do they extricate just the queen leaving the nest intact or is she the only hornet in residence?

 

[North End Bees]

Which suggests that there is population density pressure. Not sure of the logic of of taking such an approach. Yes it's a means to attract a usurping queen but monitoring the nest requires resource which could be better spent elsewhere. If the nest were destroyed the usurping queen would be more vulnerable having to start a new nest and the time saved could be focused on finding other established primary nests.

This was back in about 2019, before covid anyway. I don't know if they follow the same protocol now.
The point is though to confirm that queens definitely do usurp early nests.

So how do they extricate just the queen leaving the nest intact or is she the only hornet in residence?

The nests were embryonic.

 

[Karol]

This was back in about 2019, before covid anyway. I don't know if they follow the same protocol now.
The point is though to confirm that queens definitely do usurp early nests.

The nests were embryonic.

Erichalfbee's question still holds. Vanguard offspring are in many cases not much smaller than their queen so there's no guarantee that it was the queen that was eliminated. The only real way to tell would be to conduct extensive anatomical and genetic testing on the killed queen to confirm impregnation. The presence of eggs in an ovary is not definitive because all workers carry eggs.

 

[North End Bees]

Erichalfbee's question still holds. Vanguard offspring are in many cases not much smaller than their queen so there's no guarantee that it was the queen that was eliminated. The only real way to tell would be to conduct extensive anatomical and genetic testing on the killed queen to confirm impregnation. The presence of eggs in an ovary is not definitive because all workers carry eggs.

The nests were too early in the year for there to be adult offspring.

 

[Wilco]

@Erichalfbee I'd presume that if it's early in the year and there are no adult offspring then the queen is the one going out foraging to feed the larvae. As such she can be trapped outside the nest and dispatched. This would leave the nest intact.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on this can confirm or deny whether this is plausible.

 

[Karol]

The nests were too early in the year for there to be adult offspring.

Too early in the year?

If the nursing atrium to the nest has been enclosed there will already be vanguard workers. It's a very common mistake to assume that a queen will build an enclosed nursery before laying her eggs. In the real vespine world, the queen drops a petiole onto which she builds a platform and then starts marking out hexagonal cells. She then lays her eggs well before she completes building the cells never mind before enclosing the nursery with a protective outer skin/wall.

By the time the nursey outer skin/wall has been built there will be half a dozen vanguard workers which are easy to mistake for the queen. At this point only one adult tends to remain at the nest. The others are wood pulping or hunting. So it's very easy to assume the resident adult is the solitary queen when in fact she may be off doing her bit away from the nest.

The only way to be sure it was the queen if the nest was enclosed is as I've stated to undertake laboratory tests. Finding an embryonic nest prior to nursery enclosure is almost impossible not least because most people wouldn't know what to look for and at that stage of development they are incredibly well camouflaged.

 

[Karol]

@Erichalfbee I'd presume that if it's early in the year and there are no adult offspring then the queen is the one going out foraging to feed the larvae. As such she can be trapped outside the nest and dispatched. This would leave the nest intact.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge on this can confirm or deny whether this is plausible.

It's vespine behaviour not to feed within circa 10m of the nest. There's no guarantee that a queen caught in proximity to a nest is the resident queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Too early in the year?

If the nursing atrium to the nest has been enclosed there will already be vanguard workers. It's a very common mistake to assume that a queen will build an enclosed nursery before laying her eggs. In the real vespine world, the queen drops a petiole onto which she builds a platform and then starts marking out hexagonal cells. She then lays her eggs well before she completes building the cells never mind before enclosing the nursery with a protective outer skin/wall.

By the time the nursey outer skin/wall has been built there will be half a dozen vanguard workers which are easy to mistake for the queen. At this point only one adult tends to remain at the nest. The others are wood pulping or hunting. So it's very easy to assume the resident adult is the solitary queen when in fact she may be off doing her bit away from the nest.

The only way to be sure it was the queen if the nest was enclosed is as I've stated to undertake laboratory tests. Finding an embryonic nest prior to nursery enclosure is almost impossible not least because most people wouldn't know what to look for and at that stage of development they are incredibly well camouflaged.

Thanks Karol
People need to know all this rather than make things up and/or rely on hearsay

 

[North End Bees]

Too early in the year?

If the nursing atrium to the nest has been enclosed there will already be vanguard workers. It's a very common mistake to assume that a queen will build an enclosed nursery before laying her eggs. In the real vespine world, the queen drops a petiole onto which she builds a platform and then starts marking out hexagonal cells. She then lays her eggs well before she completes building the cells never mind before enclosing the nursery with a protective outer skin/wall.

By the time the nursey outer skin/wall has been built there will be half a dozen vanguard workers which are easy to mistake for the queen. At this point only one adult tends to remain at the nest. The others are wood pulping or hunting. So it's very easy to assume the resident adult is the solitary queen when in fact she may be off doing her bit away from the nest.

The only way to be sure it was the queen if the nest was enclosed is as I've stated to undertake laboratory tests. Finding an embryonic nest prior to nursery enclosure is almost impossible not least because most people wouldn't know what to look for and at that stage of development they are incredibly well camouflaged.

In my original comment I mentioned quite clearly it referred to very early nests. I didn't say at all that that they were enclosed. You assumed that for some reason.
These were nests with just the queen in residence. They were discovered, queen killed and nest site revisited, which is how they found that nests were consequently usurped.

 

[North End Bees]

Thanks Karol
People need to know all this rather than make things up and/or rely on hearsay

Thanks Dani. My information came from an in-person lecture by someone who is a recognised expert on Asian Hornet.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks Dani. My information came from an in-person lecture by someone who is a recognised expert on Asian Hornet.

You may be one of the fortunate ones ... there is so much rubbish about the Asian hornet being promulgated on the internet and media in general. Whilst most beekeepers (particularly those in the front line) should be very au fait with all things Asian hornet there is still a lot of education needed in the beekeeping community and more importantly the public.

Yesterday, a colleague at work proudly announced to me that she had killed three hornets 'to protect the bees'. From the description .. European Hornets ! I pointed her in the direction of the App and showed her some pictures of the Asian hornet ...

Well intentioned but ill-informed.

 

[Karol]

In my original comment I mentioned quite clearly it referred to very early nests. I didn't say at all that that they were enclosed. You assumed that for some reason.
These were nests with just the queen in residence. They were discovered, queen killed and nest site revisited, which is how they found that nests were consequently usurped.

I didn't assume anything. You stated and I quote: "The nests were too early in the year for there to be adult offspring." What time of year would that be?

Colony founding is weather dependent and is inconsistent from one year to the next making your statement imprecise. You made no comment as to the stage of development of the nests and whether they were enclosed or not. Imprecision invites clarification. If a nursery atrium is enclosed it's a silly thing not to destroy the nest when all the adults are resident, i.e. at night. That is the only sure fire way of killing the queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks Dani. My information came from an in-person lecture by someone who is a recognised expert on Asian Hornet.

Didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers, sorry.
Philip is spot on with the lack of education in those who should know.
A neighbour keeps bees. Not only did she not know how to recognise a Vv but. Had no idea there were any found in the U.K. I downloaded the app on her phone.