Late supercedure?

[Do224]

I went into a hive yesterday and found queen cells. Here’s the history;

Colony originated as a swarm caught mid May.

They built up fast and swarmed mid July.

Laying queen seen early August.

Marked queen about 10 days ago (perhaps injured her in the process?)

Inspected yesterday and saw half a dozen cells (two capped). Also noticed the remaining capped worker brood had a peppering of drone cells amongst it.

The colony is over about nine frames in a National brood box. I’d say numbers have increased if anything so don’t think they’ve swarmed.

I left all of the queen cells.

Any thoughts/advice much appreciated. Should I just leave them to it…is there enough time for them to sort themselves out before winter?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

did you see the queen?

 

[Do224]

did you see the queen?

Nope

 

[Erichalfbee]

Emergency or swarm cells? Any eggs?

 

[Do224]

Emergency or swarm cells? Any eggs?

Hmmm…not sure I’ve got the experience to say. The two capped cells were in the middle of frames but there were also a couple of uncapped ones along the bottom.

No sign of eggs or larvae

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hmmm…not sure I’ve got the experience to say. The two capped cells were in the middle of frames but there were also a couple of uncapped ones along the bottom.

No sign of eggs or larvae

You really need to know this. Emergency cells are made by extending worker cells
Swarm and supersedure cells are made from queen cups. Plenty of pictures on the internet.

 

[Hachi]

Also, sealed QC's are usually a good indication they have swarmed already.

 

[Do224]

Just seems coincidental that it happened right after I marked the queen… There’s also about three empty drawn frames so it’s not like they’re short of space. Also the new queen had only been laying for two or three weeks…

I think I’d have to take another look to be sure what type of cells they are. They were all different sizes and in different positions from what I remember (about six total)

Whether swarm, supercedure or emergency…I guess the end result is that a new queen will have to get mated and lay the winter bees in time for winter. Is that likely to happen or should I be thinking of other options?

 

[Antipodes]

Just seems coincidental that it happened right after I marked the queen… There’s also about three empty drawn frames so it’s not like they’re short of space. Also the new queen had only been laying for two or three weeks…

I think I’d have to take another look to be sure what type of cells they are. They were all different sizes and in different positions from what I remember (about six total)

Whether swarm, supercedure or emergency…I guess the end result is that a new queen will have to get mated and lay the winter bees in time for winter. Is that likely to happen or should I be thinking of other options?

When you say there are no signs of eggs or larvae, did you look inside the uncapped queen cells? I've seen them empty or with pollen in them but if you do take another look, perhaps take a quick photo or two with your phone and post them on here. Usually an open queen cell (as opposed to a cup) will have a larva inside.

 

[Do224]

When you say there are no signs of eggs or larvae, did you look inside the uncapped queen cells? I've seen them empty or with pollen in them but if you do take another look, perhaps take a quick photo or two with your phone and post them on here. Usually an open queen cell (as opposed to a cup) will have a larva inside.

Definitely larvae in the cells… they’d also pulled one of the larvae out for some reason

 

[Erichalfbee]

In Cumbria I wouldn't leave them to rear their own queen this late. Take down all the QCs put in a test frame which you can read in three days and order a mated queen if they draw more cells. A queen less colony is at real risk from wasps this time of year.
Or you could just unite them to another

 

[Do224]

In Cumbria I wouldn't leave them to rear their own queen this late. Take down all the QCs put in a test frame which you can read in three days and order a mated queen if they draw more cells. A queen less colony is at real risk from wasps this time of year.
Or you could just unite them to another

I have a nuc I could unite them with. Is it worth giving them two or three weeks to see if they can re-queen themselves first or is there not really much chance?

I’ve reduced the entrances on all of my hives and they seem to be doing ok wasp wise at the moment at least

 

[Erichalfbee]

It’s up to you. I would unite

 

[Do224]

It’s up to you. I would unite

Is there any downside to uniting in mid September as opposed to uniting now?

 

[Blunt Spike]

If it works and your colony is strong it is absolutely worth it. Keep in mind a successfully emerged queen needs a lot of luck...the weather needs to remain right to get mated. She needs to avoid all natural hazards and then she may not start laying for upto 6 weeks from now. If it all doesn't go to plan then you've probably left it too late to buy a queen. At that point you've got to unite or they'll be a dead out by spring.

Dani is right, if you buy a queen today she could be in and laying in a week, or merge and have a big colony going into winter.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is there any downside to uniting in mid September as opposed to uniting now?

I wouldn’t wait. It’s up to you

 

[Nige.Coll]

Is there any downside to uniting in mid September as opposed to uniting now?

Yeah, trying to find a virgin queen or a skittish drone layer after they have raised one that didn't mate.

 

[Do224]

Ok, thanks all. I’ve just been back in and shook all the bees off and knocked down all of the cells (I think they were emergency). No sign of eggs or larvae so I don’t think they can make any more.

When do I combine with my nuc…do I need to do a test frame first?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

When do I combine with my nuc…do I need to do a test frame first?

test frame to confirm they are Q- then unite

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ok, thanks all. I’ve just been back in and shook all the bees off and knocked down all of the cells (I think they were emergency). No sign of eggs or larvae so I don’t think they can make any more.

When do I combine with my nuc…do I need to do a test frame first?

Test frame. Check three days. Did one three days ago. Quick squirt of air freshener and moved over to neighbouring hive.