Larvae found in my honey supers- advice wanted

[radhartgeorge]

Hi all,

It's my 2nd year beekeeping and I've got my first problem that I'm more than a little concerned about and would really appreciate some advice. This afternoon's hive inspection started with me inspecting the supers and there were signs of a few larvae (see photos)- some sealed others not, probably 15 larvae in total, spread over the central 3 frames on my National hive. There was no sign of brood surrounding the larvae just honey stores...which seems odd.

Below the excluder, in the brood box, it seemed business as usual other than the fact there was quite a lot of brood hanging from the bottom of the brood frames which is unusual (for my hive at least). The bees were also slightly more aggressive than normal- infact I got my first 3 stings, again might not be relevant but thought I'd mention it just in case.

Does any experienced Beek have advice as to what I should do?

Unless I hear otherwise I was planning on doing a really thorough inspection tomorrow, removing any larvae or brood cells in the super and ensuring I know that the queen is in the brood box and waiting to see if that does the trick. Let me know if this is a good idea or a mistake.

Thanks in advance.

Ps. Was going to upload 4 or 5 photos but I've spent the last hour trying to attached more than 1 photo unsuccessfully. 1 will have to suffice or I'll attached them in subsequent posts.

 

[radhartgeorge]

Additional photos

close up photo. View attachment 10083

 

[radhartgeorge]

Open cells photo

View attachment 10084

 

[Apple]

How good is your queen excluder?
Some say that the queen will NOT lay above the honey cap ( ie the layer of honey over the top of the brood arc)

Probably the queen sneaked past the excluder, or perhaps the bees moved some eggs up there to cause you some consternation?

I know of some keepers of bees who never use a queen excluder, and accept the odd bit of brood in the supers, if it is OSR honey and you are about to spin it off as an early crop, I should not worry too much, may be the brood will give it a bit of flavour!

If the brood box is packed so much that the bees are hanging in curtains of the frames, perhaps then it is time to go brood and one half to give them room, before they swarm due to cramped conditions.
By the way I am not the most experienced keeper of bees as I can not quote ad infinitem from all the many books written on the subject!

 

[Travelator]

That looks like a few randomly placed cells of drone brood. If I just saw the picture, I would guess that it was the work of laying workers.

You might see that if the super had some bees trapped in it with no access to the rest of the hive for over a week.

However, if there's a mated laying queen with eggs and larvae downstairs and easy access for workers via a queen excluder then that seems really weird and outside my own experience.

 

[radhartgeorge]

Photos of Brood box

Thanks James. It's a plastic Thorne excluder from 5 years ago and never had a problem before.

Insufficient brood space had occurred to me and some brood frames are almost full and have hanging brood but others (towards the outside) are almost completely empty. The photo attached is of the first frame with brood on and there's still space left, perhaps they don't like laying that far from the centre and it's best to play it safe and add another super for brood?

They do look like drone cells too. Not sure if that's relevant?

Rad

 

[BeeJayBee]

That looks like a few randomly placed cells of drone brood. If I just saw the picture, I would guess that it was the work of laying workers.

(Make a few more posts and you can upload pictures to your forum gallery, which makes life a lot easier!)

 

[radhartgeorge]

Sorry Travelator. Messages crossed over.

Laying workers eh? Perhaps my long inspection tomorrow will allow them to get to where they want to be?

From the sound of it I shouldn't be too concerned though? I was worried that disaster was looming!

 

[Travelator]

Insufficient brood space had occurred to me and some brood frames are almost full and have hanging brood but others (towards the outside) are almost completely empty. The photo attached is of the first frame with brood on and there's still space left, perhaps they don't like laying that far from the centre and it's best to play it safe and add another super for brood?

They do look like drone cells too. Not sure if that's relevant?

Rad

That looks to me like a nice large swathe of worker brood laid by a healthy queen. I think I can spy medium-sized larvae around the edges too, so the queen was definitely around within the last week.

Both the super in the previous pictures and this brood frame appear have every available cell full of uncapped honey, so it looks as if the bees are running out of space to ripen honey. If so you should definitely add another super.

I can't really pronounce on whether they have run out of brood space too. Bear in mind that space on the outer faces of the outermost frames doesn't really count.

 

[oliver90owner]

I think you need to read my post on your other thread. I am now understanding some facets which were not clarified in that thread.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Sorry Travelator. Messages crossed over.

Laying workers eh? Perhaps my long inspection tomorrow will allow them to get to where they want to be?

From the sound of it I shouldn't be too concerned though? I was worried that disaster was looming!

agree, failure of worker policing of laying workers as all the nurse bees are tending bees in the brood box

photo of same seen on a hive last week but just multi workers eggs , Ratneik say up to 5%-8% of workers can lay even in a queen right hive, it is only worker policing by half sisters that reduces the number of worker drones that emerge as the eggs are removed by half sisters as not their gentic line

 

[beeno]

Hi Rad,
Beeks don't usually inspect the super just feel the weight of it as they lift it off! By 'business as usual' in the brood box do you mean that you saw BIAS, particularly did you see eggs. The good brood pattern we are looking at could be up to 12 days old. There does not seem to be a lot of bees on the frames, but it could be that you have expertly shook them off. On your previous thread there are two QC at the bottom of the frame. Is it possible that they have swarmed? Laying workers is very bad news as it makes it tricky to requeen the colony. First priority is to find the queen. Small queens, so called scrub queens, can go through a QE. Good luck.

 

[Tawny Owl]

This does look a lot like laying workers. I can't see much by way of young uncapped larvae on your brood frame, and if they are more aggressive this all suggests a colony that has been queenless for more than a week.

I am hoping I'm wrong as this can be hard to fix. Have you identified a queen yet?

 

[Apple]

Looking through my sisters colonies we found very similar with outer frames not even looked at.
In locally made cedar? National 14 x 12 brood boxes.
Trick is to put another brood on the top and move some brood frames up and get the nest moving through the centre. Then start moving frames of brood down and sideways as they draw it out for laying.
Possibly because of the location of the hives open to the cold wind coming in from the Bristol Channel, the bees prefer the warm inside combs to the cold outside ones?

In my much warmer WBCs the bees use the whole box

James

 

[oliver90owner]

previous thread there are two QC at the bottom of the frame

Did I miss something?

More like a comic again trying to befuddle another new beek!

RAB

 

[radhartgeorge]

Beeno,

Thanks. Yes- it was only by chance that I decided to look at the super... and I'm not thankful I did. Perhaps I should make it routine?

What do you mean by BIAS? Forgive my ignorance.

Yes, I shook the bees off the frame for the photo- just one fast movement downwards coming to an abrupt stop took 90% of them off. Hope this is the 'expert' method you refer to?

I did not see the QC at the bottom of the frame- I think they are just hanging drone cells? Hopefully! I'm about to go out and do the thorough inspection and will report back if I can't see any queen and perhaps take some close ups of the suspect QCs.

 

[radhartgeorge]

@Oliver90owner...

I'm glad you think so... potential QCs were on the top of my agenda when I was doing the inspection.

 

[rob bone]

if it was drone brood surely it would be more spaced out and more random

 

[MuswellMetro]

This does look a lot like laying workers. I can't see much by way of young uncapped larvae on your brood frame, and if they are more aggressive this all suggests a colony that has been queenless for more than a week.

I am hoping I'm wrong as this can be hard to fix. Have you identified a queen yet?

sorry no, it does not mean nessasirly that it is queenless , yes queenless is one sscenerio BUT you often get worker laid eggs in supers especiallay if you have comb above a super foundation over the brood (demaree kind of sepertion) or the brood is expanding fast and it is all nurse bee to the brood area to feed larvae

 

[BeeJayBee]

if it was drone brood surely it would be more spaced out and more random

No they'll often build solid blocks of drone brood beneath frames. Some beekeepers use short frames in the brood box to encourage it, then cull that drone brood once sealed, as part of varroa management.

Check out the information on Beebase. Look for downloads about "Varroa" and also "Integrated Pest Management" on this page https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=167