Langstroths in the UK?

[bjosephd]

Are there many Langstroth users in the UK?

I understand how a hive type gains 'momentum' due to everyone in a locality/association wanting to use what's gone before for ease of frames fitting all and each other's boxes for all the various advantages that brings etc…

I've also read a little on the history and how the National evolved from the old WBC and got standardised by the Ministry for Agriculture and British Standards Institute in the mid 1900s, so I also understand that it's just the way beekeeping has evolved here in the UK.

However, after further research and recently purchasing a flat pack National I'm beginning to wonder how advantageous it really is to go down the National route.

They seem to be a right faff to build and construct, a lot of (and 8 parts) wood and therefore heavy for their size. And the cost seems to reflect that.

Langstroths on the other hand are simple 4 section boxes, more brood space, cheaper (especially from "Bloke River"), and a broader variety of accessories seem available.

The local lord high Don of beekeeping here uses commercial BBs which seems a step in that direction, but they seem hellish expensive, as are 14x12s.

While I still only have one hive I'm still in a position to consider which route I'm going to go down, and once I have a small handful of hives the need for an emergency frame of brood or wotnot from a local beek becomes significantly diminished. I can also get set up with a modest 3 or 4 hives (max) for a fraction of the price of Nationals or Commercials.

Are there seriously any truly significant advantages with Nationals rather than Langstroths? I don't count the weight since as soon as you have a Commercial or 14x12 you're already hefting more weight than a Langstroth.

The rest of the world seems to be running pretty well on Langs, are we just sticking with it because it's our own special British box?

 

[Finman]

And then Langstroth may have different dimensions in different countries.

LOts of countries has "native bee hives" which are actually loaned from some other country. Who knows. And they are all so loved and perfect.

 

[bjosephd]

Hi Finman,

I think that might be a reply to my other post about the late night loitering of bees at their hive entrance?

So basically you're saying that while the colony is queenless (hopefully not hopelessly for too much longer) they have a tendency to police.

(they became queenless on Tuesday evening)

Would you reckon that once a queen hatches into the colony business as usual should return? There is currently a frame of brood including queen cells transferred from a local hive.

I have all my fingers and toes crossed =O(

(oh, your post vanished..?!)

 

[mjt68]

Do it! The suppliers you name are great and their hives are cheap and easy to assemble, but do require painting. Langstroths take 10 frames, frames come in packs of 10, easy! Nationals just made no sense to me. You may also want to consider some of the many poly Langstroths availalble (I have some but prefer wood as the poly parts aren't interchangeable between different manufacturers).

Be aware that different boxes and different sized frames are used for supers - deeps, mediums (Dadant shallows) and shallows. Most poly hives and the supplier you suggest use mediums, but you need to be careful when buying frames or extractors to make sure you have the right size.

Whilst talking about the American suppliers, I have to say I'm impressed with the Rite Cell plastic foundation. Bees draw it quickly, in lovely straight lines and it doesn't warp - I had a nuc of it for swarm collecting in my car for weeks and nothing buckled or melted. Only downside is you can't cut it for Miller Q rearing.

 

[bjosephd]

Hi mjt,

Interesting stuff, thanks!

Why do said hives need painting? They appear to be made out of good ol' cedar anyway.

Interesting stuff about the polys and plastics, although I think I'll stick to wood as it suits my sensibilities. I'm keen to try small cell foundation too (which only seems to come in wax form, definitely only in langstroth dimensions, and so far I can find it only from a certain supplier)... and then eventually move over slowly to foundationless/natural comb.

I digress.

Thanks for the positive comment on Langs though… I really was struggling to work out why spend such huge amounts of money on nationals when Langs are just as good. Why can't nationals just be built with 4 pieces of wood anyway like all almost all other boxes!

 

[pargyle]

Whatever hive size/type you decide on .. stick to it.

I went for Paynes Poly 14 x 12's as they are inexpensive, can be used with some standard boxes/equipment, they are well constructed and the bees seem to like the insulated environment.

They are not as cheap as the self assembly Langstroth kit from Mann Lake but are comparable with the made up hives in pine.

I think, to some extent, you get what you pay for in beekeeping .. hives made from cedar will last a lifetime with little maintenance - pine hives will need annual maintenance if they are going to stand the test of time.

As for plastic foundation .. IMO the jurys still out .. I had one frame of it in my long hive and the bees seemed to use it only when there was no other alternative space available and yet a member of our association has six hives which only have plastic foundation and he swears it's the best thing since glass jars to keep honey in were invented.

You will only know if you try ...

 

[pargyle]

Hi mjt,

Interesting stuff, thanks!

Why do said hives need painting? They appear to be made out of good ol' cedar anyway. QUOTE]

They are not all built from Cedar .. the cheaper ones are Pine and do need annual maintenance or they will deteriorate.

 

[alldigging]

Someone here got langstroths and it was a bit of a shock to one beekeeper who thought they were commercial and shouldn't be allowed.

I suspect I couldn't lift a full super of honey off one though.

 

[bjosephd]

They are not all built from Cedar .. the cheaper ones are Pine and do need annual maintenance or they will deteriorate.

You're absolutely right… just called them… all their Langstroths are made of pine. Now that explains a few things!

However, after a bit treatment they should be just dandy no? Or maybe I'll have to paint them a pretty colour. Gunship grey I think.

 

[mjt68]

I paint mine drab green. Hopefully it will help them last longer! With OMF, brood box, 2 mediums, crown board, roof and all frames and foundation for £90 I'm happy. Add a framed queen excluder and you get free shipping.

 

[bjosephd]

Yeah, not too shabby… although I do like the nice patina of weathered wood. I'll look up some paints… I could always go with a mild colourless wood stain/preservative.

And seriously… why does nobody make Nationals out of 4 blanks of wood instead of all that fiddly cr@p?! I see no reason why they can't have the design of a Langstroth but the proportions of a National.

 

[Bosleeu]

And seriously… why does nobody make Nationals out of 4 blanks of wood instead of all that fiddly cr@p?! I see no reason why they can't have the design of a Langstroth but the proportions of a National.

It's because of the lugs of the top bars being so long in a National frame.

If you wanted to make a simple square box with frame rests for those you would need to use some seriously thing planks of wood to make the walls with.

I absolutely love my Langstroth hives (and so did my bees I think) but realised this season I should stick to one hive type. Chose National for two reasons :

My fingers are large and I struggled a bit to handle the frames with those short little handles (gloves kept being stuck between them and the hive as well). After two seasons it still bothered me especially as I was still handling National frames and found it a lot easier.

Also like it or not most bees in this country are still kept on National frames and therefore also bought and sold on them.

Have to say I love the plastic Langstroth frames and wish somebody would start making some proper National ones. So good in the extractor!

Yes you can buy Langstroth fear pretty cheaply buy Poly Nationals are not too much more and pretty well made.

I don't think one is better than the other each keeper needs to figure out the best for him. At least I have tried both and could make my own mind up, although it cost me a few pounds.


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[bjosephd]

Ah yes, the long lugs… I noticed the wood on Rose hives is a big fat chunk on the lug ends.

Also yes, when it comes to buying/transferring bees, swapping frames as required between local beeks then you're pretty much out on a limb and would need to have enough hives to be self sufficient.

I'm still tempted to try a Langstroth while I'm still only one hive down in any given hive direction. And if I'm quick and catch a swarm (like I did in my first national!) then there's no need to worry about buying them on national frames.

(or just do what this dude did… scroll to frame pictures at bottom - http://www.cumbriabeekeepers.co.uk/... get bees from a National to a Langstroth.pdf)

 

[beecology]

Are there many Langstroth users in the UK?

I understand how a hive type gains 'momentum' due to everyone in a locality/association wanting to use what's gone before for ease of frames fitting all and each other's boxes for all the various advantages that brings etc…

I've also read a little on the history and how the National evolved from the old WBC and got standardised by the Ministry for Agriculture and British Standards Institute in the mid 1900s, so I also understand that it's just the way beekeeping has evolved here in the UK.

However, after further research and recently purchasing a flat pack National I'm beginning to wonder how advantageous it really is to go down the National route.

They seem to be a right faff to build and construct, a lot of (and 8 parts) wood and therefore heavy for their size. And the cost seems to reflect that.

Langstroths on the other hand are simple 4 section boxes, more brood space, cheaper (especially from "Bloke River"), and a broader variety of accessories seem available.

The local lord high Don of beekeeping here uses commercial BBs which seems a step in that direction, but they seem hellish expensive, as are 14x12s.

While I still only have one hive I'm still in a position to consider which route I'm going to go down, and once I have a small handful of hives the need for an emergency frame of brood or wotnot from a local beek becomes significantly diminished. I can also get set up with a modest 3 or 4 hives (max) for a fraction of the price of Nationals or Commercials.

Are there seriously any truly significant advantages with Nationals rather than Langstroths? I don't count the weight since as soon as you have a Commercial or 14x12 you're already hefting more weight than a Langstroth.

The rest of the world seems to be running pretty well on Langs, are we just sticking with it because it's our own special British box?

If I was starting out again, I would be using langstroth hives. Much better in terms of bee space and brood space.

They are the most used hives worldwide

 

[madasafish]

After 4 years of TBHs I added 3 x wooden Langs and a MB poly one:all with jumbo brood boxes. I refuse to handle heavy double broods.. no need to lift a jumbo .. I use shallow supers - about 30lb to lift when full. I used to weightlift 50 years ago: my back will not stand it now.

Compared to nationals , far less fussy and top beespace is far less hard on bees. I think I'll try plastic foundation next year..

 

[BeeJayBee]

In my area most people who start out with nationals end up either using brood and a half, commercial, langstroth or jumbo lang (which is the same frame as modified dadant) because local bees seem to need more space than in the single national brood box. Some try the 14x12 for a couple of years, but ditch that style too in favour of the commercial.

I use polystyrene jumbo langstroths. I like them because they seem almost the perfect size for my bees, but have thought about switching to the slightly smaller standard langstroth because because the smaller brood frames are a bit easier to handle.

A full poly super weighs a lot, because they take the dadant shallow frames which are deeper than the langstroth shallow frames used in most wooden langstroth hives in this country.

You can buy poly langstroths from Paynes, the current price of a complete hive, without frames, is £126 and with a complete set of wooden frames +foundation is currently £211.

It's a good idea to paint poly hives. I use gloss paint now because it's less likely to be chipped off by the birds which think the hives are nothing more than a giant bird feeder!

A friend uses Paynes plastic frames (hive + frames = £167). They think they're very good.

Take a look at ITLD's albums to see poly hives in use by a commercial beekeeper http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?u=4812

Someone here got langstroths and it was a bit of a shock to one beekeeper who thought they were commercial and shouldn't be allowed.
Eh? How does that work then? Who says one hive type isn't allowed to be used, and why?

 

[B+.]

… I really was struggling to work out why spend such huge amounts of money on nationals when Langs are just as good. Why can't nationals just be built with 4 pieces of wood anyway like all almost all other boxes!

I think it depends how prolific your bees are. If your colonies don't produce large brood nests then a National or a single Langstroth is adequate.
My carniolan colonies will easily fill two Langstroth deeps with brood during the summer though so I need doubles. New colonies usually see out their first winter in singles but they quickly grow into doubles

 

[Finman]

- pine hives will need annual maintenance if they are going to stand the test of time.


You will only know if you try ...

I have 49 y old langstroth pine hives. They are in good condition. What does 'Annual maintenance' mean?

.

 

[B+.]

I have 49 y old langstroth pine hives. They are in good condition. What does 'Annual maintenance' mean?

.

Cleaning and repairing every year so they are in a good condition to be used

 

[bjosephd]

All good thoughts here... I'm tiptoeing in my mind towards Langstroth boxes...

But this apparent disparity makes me wonder a little.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/lang.html

Anybody experienced different sized/proportioned Langstroths causing trouble? I know a particular big American supplier imports their Langs from the usa. Is going Langstroth gonna get messy with different makers?