Langstroth jumbo swarm control

[Scout]

I'm sure you have had it all before.....but I would appreciate guidance for a newbee.

I am looking to start my first hive in the spring.
My mentor has suggested I use langstroth jumbo brood box as this is what he uses.

Obviously, it makes sense for me to do the same.

However, I am wondering about swarm control using jumbo brood box, especially considering the demeree method.

My questions are
1) I presume swarming from overcrowding is still likely with a jumbo box despite having a larger volume?

2) what sort of weight is a jumbo langstroth brood box likely to be?

3) given the estra weight, will a demeree be possible given that the bottom box is lifted to the too?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

overcrowding is just one small factor in triggering swarming

 

[pargyle]

I'm sure you have had it all before.....but I would appreciate guidance for a newbee.

I am looking to start my first hive in the spring.
My mentor has suggested I use langstroth jumbo brood box as this is what he uses.

Obviously, it makes sense for me to do the same.

However, I am wondering about swarm control using jumbo brood box, especially considering the demeree method.

My questions are
1) I presume swarming from overcrowding is still likely with a jumbo box despite having a larger volume?

2) what sort of weight is a jumbo langstroth brood box likely to be?

3) given the estra weight, will a demeree be possible given that the bottom box is lifted to the too?

It's big box but as JBM has intimated - space is not the only trigger for swarm control. There is no reason why you can't use Demaree as a pre-emptive measure and there are a few good threads on here telling you exactly how to do a Demaree properly (There's also a few half baked, half hearted, hybrid ideas as well on the internet so watch out for them and avoid them). The fact that Langstoth jumbos are big boxes only limit what you can do in terms of .physical lifting - the size of box is irrelevant.

Whatever you start out with it will probably be a Nuc or a swarm ... both are unlikely to swarm in the first year unless you get very unlucky .. but it should not stop you from inspecting the colony - looking for swarm cells in the season is a very integral part of beekeeping - get used to it - and be prepared with enough spare kit just in case you do need it.

Lastly, if you are worried about the size/weight of Jumbo Langstroths at this stage then you really should either get some real hands on time with that size box with bees in it to make sure it is a format that suits you - it's a real pain when you find halfway through your second season that you don't like the boxes you are handling ...and you have a shed full of kit.

The fact that your mentor uses those boxes has no (or a very limited) place in your decision about what box size suits you .. check out what you prefer and go with that - bees can easily be transferred between different hive formats with a bit of creativity.

 

[Scout]

It's big box but as JBM has intimated - space is not the only trigger for swarm control. There is no reason why you can't use Demaree as a pre-emptive measure and there are a few good threads on here telling you exactly how to do a Demaree properly (There's also a few half baked, half hearted, hybrid ideas as well on the internet so watch out for them and avoid them). The fact that Langstoth jumbos are big boxes only limit what you can do in terms of .physical lifting - the size of box is irrelevant.

Whatever you start out with it will probably be a Nuc or a swarm ... both are unlikely to swarm in the first year unless you get very unlucky .. but it should not stop you from inspecting the colony - looking for swarm cells in the season is a very integral part of beekeeping - get used to it - and be prepared with enough spare kit just in case you do need it.

Lastly, if you are worried about the size/weight of Jumbo Langstroths at this stage then you really should either get some real hands on time with that size box with bees in it to make sure it is a format that suits you - it's a real pain when you find halfway through your second season that you don't like the boxes you are handling ...and you have a shed full of kit.

The fact that your mentor uses those boxes has no (or a very limited) place in your decision about what box size suits you .. check out what you prefer and go with that - bees can easily be transferred between different hive formats with a bit of creativity.

Thanks.
Sadly, it's the wrong time of year to be "trying out" boxes but the right time of year to be planning.

I am used to lumping heavy items around, so I wouldn't describe myself as concerned, more just thinking options. Hence why weight is something I am considering.

 

[JamezF]

I might be more tempted to go for two standard deeps if you want to use Langstroths and plan to do Demaree swarm control. In that case you can split the two boxes, move the brood to the one that was on top (shaking off all the bees) and backfill the bottom with the spare frames from the top, then put on your QX, shallows, QX/Demaree board and finally the deep with the brood.

James

 

[pargyle]

Thanks.
Sadly, it's the wrong time of year to be "trying out" boxes but the right time of year to be planning.

I am used to lumping heavy items around, so I wouldn't describe myself as concerned, more just thinking options. Hence why weight is something I am considering.

You mentioned weight (twice) so the intimation was that you had concerns.

Brood boxex of any size (I run 14 x 12's) are fairly heavy ... a full jumbo langstroth is about as heavy as any standard brood box will get .. you are not just humping weights about, you are often lifting boxes at arms length at height or from ground level and if they are full of bees/honey, not tipping them unduly. It's not ideal lifting posture and it's very easy to end up with beekeepers back.

If you are a muscular, well built, above average height person used to lifting at least 50 or 60 lbs at arms length you have nothing to fear .. if you are having doubts it's the right time of year to get a cardboard box about the same size as a Langstroth Jumbo and fill it with bricks and see how you get on.

There are other factors to take into account ...the availability of kit - Jumbo Langstroths are not a common hive format in the UK .. Nationals and 14 x 12 are much more common (although I would commend standard Langs as a good option) and you will find it easier to pick up (purchase) National kit than Jumbo Langs - frames and foundation, you will need a Langstroth size extractor in due course - so, get things right when (before) you start buying kit as you won't be the first new beekeeper at the end of year 2 who wished he started with a different format - and once you have started it's hard to change without it costing you money or aggravation - probably both. The worst case scenario is mis-matched box sizes in your apiary - worse if you also mix up timber hives and poly.

LIke all things in beekeeping much is down to personal preference - tread your own path; there are few things from your decisions that will affect the bees, they don't care what box size you choose ... you, however, may suffer !

 

[Erichalfbee]

My questions are
1) I presume swarming from overcrowding is still likely with a jumbo box despite having a larger volume?

2) what sort of weight is a jumbo langstroth brood box likely to be?

3) given the estra weight, will a demeree be possible given that the bottom box is lifted to the too?

I Demaree 14x12s which must be nigh on the same weight.....but Stan does the lifting
The Demaree thread is here Demaree
And there is more useful info here INDEX of STICKIES

 

[Garry R]

overcrowding is just one small factor in triggering swarming

Yes it is ONE factor but the over riding factor for swarming is the massive driving force in every living thing and that is the overwhelming drive to increase your species numbers. It was suggested in the Daily Telegraph that we should should breed the swarming instinct out of bees completely and in a reply (which I proudly got published) I pointed out that swarming is the only means that bees have of making increase and without it they would be extinct. . Beekeepers can just help along by manipulation but don't breed out the basic instinct please.

 

[rolande]

No specific experience with the langstroth jumbo, but I do use modified dadants which take an extra, eleventh frame, one of those broods is pretty much equivalent to a national brood and half with respect to comb area, so although you have what might be considered a mid range brood area it's all concentrated into the one box which can be rather heavy -if you bank on +/- 85lb for the MD during summer and autumn I doubt you'd be far off, a jumbo won't be far behind, considering it's only one frame less. The depth of the box doesn't, in my personal experience, lend itself to any manipulation that requires lifting above an excluder or split board but that's certainly not to say that it can't be done if you want to. It's only a box after all and you wouldn't need to have a full complement of combs in it. In fact there's a German beekeeper, Bernhard Heuval, who promotes a system attributed to Brother Adam where even the primary brood chamber isn't always fully stocked with frames. He wrote about it a fair bit on beesource (but I think most of his photos which are always very clear and descriptive in their own right have been removed/lost).

Big question is how do you get on with your mentors hives? I think it could be a good choice but when the langstroth footprint has a perfectly good standard deep hive body which really does have multi box flexibility I think that you may be wise to think along those lines.


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A little side history for fun, contrary to common belief the langstroth jumbo predates the modified dadant by about twenty years.