Langstroth: harmony frame rotation method

[oliver90owner]

Marly, I've not read the whole post but from your last sentence, your bees are clearly not sustainable in nature; they are the end of an evolutionary line. Without you they will become extinct. Not a good way to go, IMO.

As for rotating frames - shouldn't we all be doing this. Don't most of us do it already and have been for years? A fancy new name for a simple well known procedure? Next, we will see some patent for it, maybe? Get real, get simple, and do the sensible thing for your bees without trying to claim a fancy new name, 'cos it won't work over here. We just call it frame rotation or exchange.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have just added my name into this UK Beekeeping Forum. After 15 years of reading and experimenting with our local bees as well as listening attentively to hundreds of stories about OP's (other people's) wild and wonderful tales of stings and things the rotation method simply evolved in quite a logical way. I was enjoying a coffee one morning with a new student of mine, she was keen to become a BK and collect honey. She looked up after the completion of the first theory lesson and remarked...its all about energy! The common denominator between bees and humans is...energy! Watching the behaviours of local birds and their group dynamics as well as fish and comparing same kept me going until the HFRM (rotation method) clicked into place. It was the last piece in a giant jigsaw puzzle. For those of you keen to learn more and to convince yourselves that this HFRM indeed has great merit, beg steal or borrow (the dog whisperer) Cesar Millan's PEOPLE TRAINING FOR DOGS VOL ONE. Concepts of energy are explained. There are similarities when dealing with bees. To leave you with the briefest possible summary of HFRM the BK starts working with his QB from the first day after she enters her world inside a full depth nucleus hive (5 FR box). After she begins her egg laying cycle into clean freshly built combs, the BK every 3 days checks her and adds fresh foundation frames and removes the sealed w/brood frame allowing the support bees in the brood nest to be continuously building combs onto the new foundation. Essentially here the BK allows hatching of new bees and removal of surplus brood. The support bees must never be idle, always working and pleasing their queen. The role of the BK is to enhance the dominant role of the QB. After 6 weeks of close attention and frequent inspections and introduction of new foundation frames (cleanliness is very important) the QB connects to her BK as a source of constancy and reliability. Next the contents of the nucleus hive are transferred to a full depth brood box and every 2 weeks, filled sealed brood frames are rotated above the QE and fresh foundation frames are added into the brood spaces. The cry of the students following HFRM is IN, UP, OUT.
The bees NEVER swarm. Marley.

What a total load of B*ll*x especially the last sentence - as RAB has just said - dropping off the end of the evolutionary cycle.
But then if people are gullible enough to swallow it - there's money to earn somewhere

 

[Finman]

.
i have renewed my combs quite a lot this year.

Only a big mistake what I have done 40years aho was, that I moved allways light color combs to the middle of laying area. Then one day my all brood combs were coffee brown at same time.

After that I have moved older combs to the brood centre. When the comb is old enough, I take it off from usage. So it flows...no bailey exhanges,no great happenings. During main flow hives draw new foundation boxes as much as I want. Every box takes 7 kg honey to be drawn ready. It is not free to renew them. If a hive dies during winter, combs are usually ruined. It is expencive too.

Couple years ago wax moths destroyd a huge amount of combs in my store. It was really expencive. It was very new to me how fast it happened.

 

[madasafish]

What a total load of B*ll*x especially the last sentence - as RAB has just said - dropping off the end of the evolutionary cycle.
But then if people are gullible enough to swallow it - there's money to earn somewhere

I find people who post without punctuation - or in long paragraphs - are usually ranters.

I can't be bothered to read what they post.

(The DT forums have a few - often UKIP supporters..)

 

[Madge]

...and every 2 weeks, filled sealed brood frames are rotated above the QE ... Marley.

Poor trapped drones above the QX. Where's your heart? Or have you made a top exit for them?

 

[joctcl]

I have just added my name into this UK Beekeeping Forum. After 15 years of reading and experimenting with our local bees as well as listening attentively to hundreds of stories about OP's (other people's) wild and wonderful tales of stings and things the rotation method simply evolved in quite a logical way. I was enjoying a coffee one morning with a new student of mine, she was keen to become a BK and collect honey. She looked up after the completion of the first theory lesson and remarked...its all about energy! The common denominator between bees and humans is...energy! Watching the behaviours of local birds and their group dynamics as well as fish and comparing same kept me going until the HFRM (rotation method) clicked into place. It was the last piece in a giant jigsaw puzzle. For those of you keen to learn more and to convince yourselves that this HFRM indeed has great merit, beg steal or borrow (the dog whisperer) Cesar Millan's PEOPLE TRAINING FOR DOGS VOL ONE. Concepts of energy are explained. There are similarities when dealing with bees. To leave you with the briefest possible summary of HFRM the BK starts working with his QB from the first day after she enters her world inside a full depth nucleus hive (5 FR box). After she begins her egg laying cycle into clean freshly built combs, the BK every 3 days checks her and adds fresh foundation frames and removes the sealed w/brood frame allowing the support bees in the brood nest to be continuously building combs onto the new foundation. Essentially here the BK allows hatching of new bees and removal of surplus brood. The support bees must never be idle, always working and pleasing their queen. The role of the BK is to enhance the dominant role of the QB. After 6 weeks of close attention and frequent inspections and introduction of new foundation frames (cleanliness is very important) the QB connects to her BK as a source of constancy and reliability. Next the contents of the nucleus hive are transferred to a full depth brood box and every 2 weeks, filled sealed brood frames are rotated above the QE and fresh foundation frames are added into the brood spaces. The cry of the students following HFRM is IN, UP, OUT.
The bees NEVER swarm. Marley.

Ok trying to push to oneside the bs about the birds and the bees and the fish, in my eyes you are putting the whole harmony and equilibrium of the hive under constant stress by inspecting a nucleus every 3 days.

To be practical, on a 5 Fr nucleus lets assume 3 are brood and you are suggesting pulling one every three days, over 6 weeks that's 14 frames!, what a terrible waste of resources or "energy" as you call it

If brood rearing was the only activity in a hive I could probably see where you are coming from but all I can see is is you are forcing all of the hive "energy" into prolific brood rearing which will ultimately result in swarming?

I am interested in understanding more of your methods but please try and explain without the fluff.

 

[Finman]

.
Don't mix nursing of 5 frame nuc and productive 5-8 box hive.

In Australia to force build foundations is very common preventive swarming control method. .

 

[Marley]

harmony frame rotation method

Hey guys, I was sitting down with a group of 13 BK's a while ago, many of whom were big talkers and bee experts. A simple Q was posed to the group and we got 13 different answers. The definition of an expert? A man who can look at a rumpled bed and tell you if it was used for love or money! Yes, even in my home place we have dyed in the wool bee practitioners whose differing opinions are "incredible". We have a word for these folks, curmudgeons. Guys, the proof is in the pudding. My home hive has never swarmed. My home hive has a brood box a QE and 3 honey supers all through the summer and it produced 130kgs of honey in 2012 and 80kgs in 2013. The QB raised during the 6 week training period and then transferred to a F/D brood box etc., was a delight to work with. Oh, I forgot to mention, NO SMOKE has ever been used.
Every month X 2 inspections and rotations, the condition of the hive is assessed, weather conditions considered and before the onset of a low or high pressure weather change, the number of frames to be rotated is determined. 10F F/D brood box needs 5-7 to be rotated up and new frames placed in when a HP weather pattern is coming. Less rotations if a cold rainy period is looming.
As for the lovely boys (the drones) they are left in the brood box and NOT rotated. It only takes 4 minutes to open a hive and conduct the inspection and complete the rotations as required. The QB usually shows herself to her BK like she is glad to see the regular repetition and caring assistance from her good friend, her BK. I gave up being a BEE LOSER and now I can say I am at last a real BEEKEEPER... Marley

 

[Little John]

It sounds a bloody awful system to my ears - making human beings an integral and indispensable component of the hive ? 'Control-freakery' at it's worst.

A couple of sentences in particular stand out:

The role of the BK is to enhance the dominant role of the QB.

But the Queen Bee isn't in any sense dominant - she is chosen for her role by the bien, and thereafter does it's bidding. When she begins to fail, she's replaced by the same mechanism which chose her in the first place. From what I've just read, you appear to be exploiting the Queen Bee's role, and ignoring the control function of the bien itself.

After 6 weeks of close attention and frequent inspections and introduction of new foundation frames (cleanliness is very important) the QB connects to her BK as a source of constancy and reliability.

Jeesus - where to start with that one ? Far too much human imposition, and an assumption that human ideas of 'cleanliness' are shared by the insect world. Having watched bees drinking cow's urine and drinking from stagnant ponds, I'd seriously challenge such claims.
And as for "QB connects to her BK" - by "connect" I assume you mean 'becomes reliant upon' (?) - do you really want such a situation to develop ? If so, then why ? And again - you're missing the key point that it's the bien, and NOT the Queen Bee which dictates the pace and well-being of the hive.

To my way of thinking it sounds like one helluva'n ego-trip.

LJ

 

[Finman]

MlL

Jeesus - where to start with that one ? Far too much human imposition, and an assumption that human ideas of 'cleanliness' are shared by the insect world. Having watched bees drinking cow's urine and drinking from stagnant ponds, I'd seriously challenge such claims.


LJ

Yes, that idea.... In nature a hive uses its combs so long that cells are too small and then bees brake combs and make new.so happened in kerb beehives. Movable frames have been 150 years.

In nature, when a hive dies, a swarm concures the cavity and cavity again.
.
What is the idea? ..to save comb buiding energy or to take a disease risk.

From human point of view it looks strange that bees can rear healthy larvae when they suck drinking water from all kind of dirty. Beeks think that it is fresh combs which make the hive healthy, but when you know bees' living habits, the system is very different.

Same with wasps. They eate rotten fruits, fermented juices and dead animal's flesh instead of clean pollen.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hey guys, I was sitting down with a group of 13 BK's a while ago, many of whom were big talkers and bee experts. A simple Q was posed to the group and we got 13 different answers. The definition of an expert? A man who can look at a rumpled bed and tell you if it was used for love or money! Yes, even in my home place we have dyed in the wool bee practitioners whose differing opinions are "incredible". We have a word for these folks, curmudgeons. Guys, the proof is in the pudding. My home hive has never swarmed. My home hive has a brood box a QE and 3 honey supers all through the summer and it produced 130kgs of honey in 2012 and 80kgs in 2013. The QB raised during the 6 week training period and then transferred to a F/D brood box etc., was a delight to work with. Oh, I forgot to mention, NO SMOKE has ever been used.
Every month X 2 inspections and rotations, the condition of the hive is assessed, weather conditions considered and before the onset of a low or high pressure weather change, the number of frames to be rotated is determined. 10F F/D brood box needs 5-7 to be rotated up and new frames placed in when a HP weather pattern is coming. Less rotations if a cold rainy period is looming.
As for the lovely boys (the drones) they are left in the brood box and NOT rotated. It only takes 4 minutes to open a hive and conduct the inspection and complete the rotations as required. The QB usually shows herself to her BK like she is glad to see the regular repetition and caring assistance from her good friend, her BK. I gave up being a BEE LOSER and now I can say I am at last a real BEEKEEPER... Marley

What a fluffy, cozy world you think the bees live in. Reality may be a big shock to you one day.

 

[Dishmop]

Basic is
"I heard"
I know an old beek
Inspector said
we have a climate
national consensus

and so on

So who do we listen to and take advice from?
Somebody from Finland.........Australia....or the UK?

 

[madasafish]

I have a hive which produces lots of honey and has never swarmed in two years. And use no smoke.

So what?

I don't do jiggery pokery as (badly ) described.

I don't claim to have invented a new method of keeping bees.

(I do, however, try to write in short readable paragraphs )

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a hive which produces lots of honey and has never swarmed in two years. And use no smoke.

So what?

I don't do jiggery pokery as (badly ) described.

I don't claim to have invented a new method of keeping bees.

(I do, however, try to write in short readable paragraphs )

I think the only smoke used in this id!ot's life is the stuff I spent my career arresting people for - too muck puffing weed in his cosy little cuckoo land has turned his brain to jelly.

(I do, however, try to write in short readable paragraphs )

yes, loss of ability to use punctuation/form coherent sentences is another indicator of over use of 'recreational' drugs.

 

[Finman]

.
Marley's hive is guite small. 4 supers. But the yield comes from good pastures and from long yield period, and not do much from that small hive.
In Finland yield period 1.5 months, when we get surplus honey. Flowers bloom 3 months.

In Australia blooming period is 10 months or what? canola starts blooming.

And again, nothing odd when you renew your combs. It is one basic job in beekeeping. No need to invent a wheel.
You give a box of foundations and bees do it.

With artificial swarm bees draw 2 box of foundations in 2 weeks and stops swarming. Swarming is not so bad.
.

 

[Dishmop]

Chucking away half the brood every so often doesnt seem as if it would do much good for the survival of the honey bee.

 

[joctcl]

A simple description or methodology with no bull, otherwise its like being subjected to a 4 hour sales pitch for a timeshare.

 

[Finman]

Chucking away half the brood every so often doesnt seem as if it would do much good for the survival of the honey bee.

Brood is lifted over excluder. It is not away.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So in other words it's just b*ggering about with the Demarree system (Plagiarism?). Not a new idea but taking a good system and turning it into a bad one.
Funnily enough there is one (otherwise) respected beekeeper in the UK who is claiming a similar system is his.
So here we go again:

Hey guys! look what I invented - I'm going to call it the wheel - but it's different, because it's square.

 

[Dishmop]

Brood is lifted over excluder. It is not away.

Thankyou......
To be honest I couldnt be bothered to read it all...