Joining two incompatible hives

[pargyle]

Well - sounds like the air freshener route is favourite ... must give it a go myself.

Does it matter what type or fragrance of air freshener you use ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Does it matter what type or fragrance of air freshener you use ?

Don't use the tropical delight spray - banana and coconut fragrance

 

[Etton]

Don't use the tropical delight spray - banana and coconut fragrance

So which brand air sprays work best and are proven to work, rather than the ones not to get? Thanks

 

[Beefriendly]

So which brand air sprays work best

Non of them that I know of, you need air freshener. Any brand any scent. This year I used Airwick 6 in 1 purple lavender meadow and Lidl budget W5 citrus zest, no noticeable difference...All amalgamations fine...almost to the point where you wonder if you need the air freshener..?

 

[ShinySideUp]

Ok, I've seen all the answers and suggestions and there is only one thing left to do and that's be absolutely sure that the colony is queenless. I know for a fact that if she is there she is unmarked and I don't have the best eyesight when working close-up -- I use a magnifying glass to inspect for eggs. Now while I'm absolutely sure there are no eggs and no larvae on any of the frames that fact that I haven't seen the queen does not mean she isn't there.

One thing that makes me pretty sure though is the huge mite drop, which I referrred to in another thread, which has now ceased without treatment. My thought is that there are no larvae, no eggs, and no sealed cells and therefore nowhere for the mites to dwell-- hence the large mite drop a week or so ago.

Since the combining of the colonies is not going to be an easy matter due to the incompatible hives my thought is that I am going to let the Q- colony run it's course without interference since the very youngest bee in there has only about four weeks left anyway. Then I'm going to empty the hive, put the frames in the freezer to kill anything nasty that might be left and then in the new year transfer the nuc into the newly refurbished hive with the additional stores from the failed colony. The nuc is very healthy with many bees and a lot of stores, so much so that it is not possible to remove any of the frames without damage to the comb and therefore also impossible to reinsert without killing a lot of bees and possibly damaging or killing the queen. I think it will have a much better chance of survival if left well alone.

 

[enrico]

So which brand air sprays work best and are proven to work, rather than the ones not to get? Thanks

I use Glade warm vanilla. It cost me a pound three years ago!
E

 

[pargyle]

Ok, I've seen all the answers and suggestions and there is only one thing left to do and that's be absolutely sure that the colony is queenless. I know for a fact that if she is there she is unmarked and I don't have the best eyesight when working close-up -- I use a magnifying glass to inspect for eggs. Now while I'm absolutely sure there are no eggs and no larvae on any of the frames that fact that I haven't seen the queen does not mean she isn't there.

The nuc is very healthy with many bees and a lot of stores, so much so that it is not possible to remove any of the frames without damage to the comb and therefore also impossible to reinsert without killing a lot of bees and possibly damaging or killing the queen. I think it will have a much better chance of survival if left well alone.

You may be surprised at how long bees will live when they have no brood to rear ... I'm combining a colony tomorrow that has been queenless since July (despite my best efforts to get them to rear a queen !). Still a healthy colony, no drone layers and a fair amount of bees still in there. I should have combined them sooner ...

I'd go back to my plan A and combine - there's nothing sadder than a pile of dead bees on the bottom of a hive and bees with their bums sticking out of empty cells.. Combine them ... much better to give them a chance of carrying on and the bigger the colony the better going into winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ok, I've seen all the answers and suggestions and there is only one thing left to do and that's be absolutely sure that the colony is queenless. I know for a fact that if she is there she is unmarked and I don't have the best eyesight when working close-up -- I use a magnifying glass to inspect for eggs. Now while I'm absolutely sure there are no eggs and no larvae on any of the frames that fact that I haven't seen the queen does not mean she isn't there.

One thing that makes me pretty sure though is the huge mite drop, which I referrred to in another thread, which has now ceased without treatment. My thought is that there are no larvae, no eggs, and no sealed cells and therefore nowhere for the mites to dwell-- hence the large mite drop a week or so ago.

Since the combining of the colonies is not going to be an easy matter due to the incompatible hives my thought is that I am going to let the Q- colony run it's course without interference since the very youngest bee in there has only about four weeks left anyway. Then I'm going to empty the hive, put the frames in the freezer to kill anything nasty that might be left and then in the new year transfer the nuc into the newly refurbished hive with the additional stores from the failed colony. The nuc is very healthy with many bees and a lot of stores, so much so that it is not possible to remove any of the frames without damage to the comb and therefore also impossible to reinsert without killing a lot of bees and possibly damaging or killing the queen. I think it will have a much better chance of survival if left well alone.

The other option if you cannot find a queen and cannot be certain they are queen less is to shake them out a good few yards from the other hives - preferably the other side of the hedge into a patch of brambles or similar.
Done that a few times and found the queen in a small cluster of bees where I had shaken them out a few days later.

 

[ShinySideUp]

I'd go back to my plan A and combine - there's nothing sadder than a pile of dead bees on the bottom of a hive and bees with their bums sticking out of empty cells.. Combine them ... much better to give them a chance of carrying on and the bigger the colony the better going into winter.

I'm afraid I can't. Since my last check on the Q- hive I have had a good look at the nuc and as I mentioned in my last post it is rammed, really. I tried to get a single frame out to have a look but there is so much stores down there that if I take a frame out I won't get it back in and I can't risk another queen before winter. Theonly way I'm going to get the frames out safely is to wait until the bees have used up a lot of the stores or take all six out at once using a joining framework of some sort (yet to be designed).

This whole story has come about because of my inexperience but I should go into next year with a much bigger armoury of knowledge. First thing to do is to stop using poly nucs and use full-size brood boxes with dummy boards to limit the frame count. With my existing poly nuc (I have two, only one in use) I shall cut out the feeder and insert a dummy board instead so I won't get this congestion problem again.

As far as the Q- hive goes they will have to take their chances, perhaps there is a lazy queen in there somewhere and she'll pop up later to save the day -- I won't hold my breath.

Being an animal lover I appreciate the sentiment about lonely, dead bees in a queenless hive but it is nature and there is no good throwing good queens after bad. The upside is that without bees on frames I can gain a lot more experience on the structure of a hive and examine things in a bee-free environment.

On the other hand:

I might, however, just get myself a full-sized brood box, slip the six nuc frames into it as a job lot and try the combination that way...........In fact the more I think about it, the more I like that idea.

I'll be back.

 

[pargyle]

On the other hand:

I might, however, just get myself a full-sized brood box, slip the six nuc frames into it as a job lot and try the combination that way...........In fact the more I think about it, the more I like that idea.

I'll be back.

Yes ... you've got yourself into a situation that's a bit daunting for a beginner and clearly have learned a few lessons:

Nucs are only temporary accommodation during the season - once the colony starts to develop and grow you should really be putting them into a larger box. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a Nuc if it is used as its intended.

They can successfully overwinter small colonies but the risk you run is that there is not enough stores in a nuc for a big colony to survive over winter without feeding - you will need to be particularly vigilant in monitoring the weight of the hive. With your inexperience I would suggest that you find a way of weighing the hive and you weigh regularly.

The fact that the frames are stuffed together indicates that the colony has not had enough room and has created brace comb in every spare inch of space - your inspection routine has clearly not been sufficient if they have got to this space. That's not a criticism - I've been there - and it sometimes takes some courage to lever out the frames, honey runs everywhere and you leave behind what looks like a mess - but, you clean the frames up, cut out the bits of brace comb and scrape off the propolis - the bees WILL clean up the mess - you have to be brave - it's what the sharp bits on your hive tool are intended for. It's still warm enough to sort the Nuc out properly but I know it's a step outside of your comfort zone ... man up - get it done.

Paynes 14 x 12 are difficult to sit two brood boxes together - whilst I like the locating lugs on the bottom they are a problem if you want to sit another brood box on top of another. I have a spare timber 14 x 12 brood box which I use for combining as it will sit on top of my Paynes 14 x 12's and it's easy to do a combine. Some people cut the lugs off and use a standard floor but I actually like the Paynes floors.

I know it's a pain for you but I'd still be trying to get them all into a 14 x 12 to overwinter - much better option all round if you can manage it somehow.

It's an easy mod to cut out the feeder on Paynes Nucs - I just use the space for an additional frame - I don't bother with a dummy in the Nucs - just inspect regularly and clean up the creative bits they make.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Ok, I've seen all the answers and suggestions and there is only one thing left to do and that's be absolutely sure that the colony is queenless. I know for a fact that if she is there she is unmarked and I don't have the best eyesight when working close-up -- I use a magnifying glass to inspect for eggs. Now while I'm absolutely sure there are no eggs and no larvae on any of the frames that fact that I haven't seen the queen does not mean she isn't there.

One thing that makes me pretty sure though is the huge mite drop, which I referrred to in another thread, which has now ceased without treatment. My thought is that there are no larvae, no eggs, and no sealed cells and therefore nowhere for the mites to dwell-- hence the large mite drop a week or so ago.

Since the combining of the colonies is not going to be an easy matter due to the incompatible hives my thought is that I am going to let the Q- colony run it's course without interference since the very youngest bee in there has only about four weeks left anyway. Then I'm going to empty the hive, put the frames in the freezer to kill anything nasty that might be left and then in the new year transfer the nuc into the newly refurbished hive with the additional stores from the failed colony. The nuc is very healthy with many bees and a lot of stores, so much so that it is not possible to remove any of the frames without damage to the comb and therefore also impossible to reinsert without killing a lot of bees and possibly damaging or killing the queen. I think it will have a much better chance of survival if left well alone.

If you have kept the frames correctly spaced there shouldn't be a serious problem in separating the frames. Frequently any bridging comb you can see between the top of the frames is restricted to the tops and can be simply sliced out of the way.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Thank you all for your considerable help and advice and I have now finally come to the end of my problem and it has been staring me in the face all the time.

I might have mentioned that I have two hives and one nuc and I have been stuck in a train of thought that I must combine the nuc with the queenless hive. I was sitting on the summerhouse step this afternoon, pondering on how I can do the combine when it suddenly, you know like a spade in the face, came to me -- why do I have to do it with the nuc?!!!

I have a pefectly good hive, with a queen, not three feet from the failing colony and with identical footprint. Combination should take less than ten minutes to complete. Take the top off hive 2, place QE and newspaper on top of frames, lift hive 1 and place on top -- I don't even need to take the top off hive 1. Go and have a beer.

Doh!

As far as the nuc is concerned, as soon as the hive combination is satifactorily complete I have a spare brood box, job done.

I like to think I am an intelligent man but really, sometimes I wonder.


One last thing. The reason the nuc box is in the tight mess it's in is because two weeks ago it weighed nothing and had virtually no stores. I've probably fed about 8kgs of sugar syrup in the intervening time but obviously they have got a bit of a step on and filled it up themselves too.

 

[pargyle]

Thank you all for your considerable help and advice and I have now finally come to the end of my problem and it has been staring me in the face all the time.

I might have mentioned that I have two hives and one nuc and I have been stuck in a train of thought that I must combine the nuc with the queenless hive. I was sitting on the summerhouse step this afternoon, pondering on how I can do the combine when it suddenly, you know like a spade in the face, came to me -- why do I have to do it with the nuc?!!!

I have a pefectly good hive, with a queen, not three feet from the failing colony and with identical footprint. Combination should take less than ten minutes to complete. Take the top off hive 2, place QE and newspaper on top of frames, lift hive 1 and place on top -- I don't even need to take the top off hive 1. Go and have a beer.

Doh!

As far as the nuc is concerned, as soon as the hive combination is satifactorily complete I have a spare brood box, job done.

I like to think I am an intelligent man but really, sometimes I wonder.
track

One last thing. The reason the nuc box is in the tight mess it's in is because two weeks ago it weighed nothing and had virtually no stores. I've probably fed about 8kgs of sugar syrup in the intervening time but obviously they have got a bit of a step on and filled it up themselves too.

As long as your 'queenless' hive is QUEENLESS ... it will work. If we had known you had another viable colony we may well have suggested this as an option but ... when you are up to your arse in alligators you often forget your original objective was to drain the swamp ... easy to lose track of the ball in beekeeping.

Still ... your light bulb moment arrived eventually so pat yourself on the back - you got there !

 

[Beefriendly]

If we had known you had another viable colony we may well have suggested this as an option but ..

He did as in

I am queenless in one of my 14 x 12 hives,

 

[pargyle]

He did as in

I'm astounded that your sharp eyes and superior beekeeping ability didn't suggest the option at Post #3 then ???

Would have saved us mere mortals from going all round the houses ....

 

[ShinySideUp]

Wood for the trees, folks, wood for the trees.

 

[ShinySideUp]

As long as your 'queenless' hive is QUEENLESS!

I don't see how it can't be queenless. There are no eggs, no larvae and no capped cells, nothing. Just a lot of void where these things should be. The bees are not doing much in the way of flying and after going through the hive I can't see the queen or any eveidence. IF there is a queen in there she is going to get a shock in the morning.

But let's just say I'm wrong...

I put one brood box on top of another with newspaper and a QE in between and there are queens in both boxes which can't get to each other; what happens?

 

[pargyle]

I don't see how it can't be queenless. There are no eggs, no larvae and no capped cells, nothing. Just a lot of void where these things should be. The bees are not doing much in the way of flying and after going through the hive I can't see the queen or any eveidence. IF there is a queen in there she is going to get a shock in the morning.

But let's just say I'm wrong...

I put one brood box on top of another with newspaper and a QE in between and there are queens in both boxes which can't get to each other; what happens?

Chances are one lot of bees will stay with their queen and the other lot will stay with their queen ... the top box will have to go through the newspaper to get out of the hive and there will be an almighty fight on the way through ... lots of dead bees if you are unlucky ... and the possibility that both queens will be killed in the fight ...

Then again, you could get lucky. Do you feel lucky ?

Seriously, it does sound as though they are queenless - there really should be brood there at present - my queens are laying like a train at the moment - one hive has every spare cell in the brood box with capped brood and she's even laid a patch in the lower super (I don't use queen excluders).

Probably worth the risk ...

 

[ShinySideUp]

After a panic search for a broadsheet newspaper, as a tabloid doesn't fully cover and didn't want to risk a large gap between sheets, it is done. I did it in the twilight so all the bees were in but there were still a few left on the OMF which I tried to shake into the top before the roof went on but I'm afraid a few didn't make it -- perhaps they'll beg their way in through their new front door.

New full-sized brood box coming for the nuc tomorrow or Wednesday and that will leave me with a brood box for future use after I remove the transplanted one after a couple of weeks.

 

[pargyle]

After a panic search for a broadsheet newspaper, as a tabloid doesn't fully cover and didn't want to risk a large gap between sheets, it is done. I did it in the twilight so all the bees were in but there were still a few left on the OMF which I tried to shake into the top before the roof went on but I'm afraid a few didn't make it -- perhaps they'll beg their way in through their new front door.

New full-sized brood box coming for the nuc tomorrow or Wednesday and that will leave me with a brood box for future use after I remove the transplanted one after a couple of weeks.

Well done ... fingers crossed ...