Extra queen cell in split nuc!

[noumenon]

My main colony produced queen cells on 1st July. I took the best one and all the brood and put it into a nuc box with plenty of feed. They've taken down lots of feed (3L in 2 weeks) and there are plenty of bees in the box. The queen cell looks like it hatched, though a quick inspection didn't locate the new queen.

While inspecting, I noticed a clump of wax. Upon opening it with my hive tool, I found a well developed queen larvae. With clear body segmentation and eyes, this would place it at around 12-14 days. I'm guessing that when they went into the nuc, the bees took an existing egg and tried to make a queen?

Just wondering what to do now. Do I just wait another one or two weekly inspections to see if I can see the queen or eggs/larvae? Or anything else I should consider?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't understand what you were trying to achieve.
Of course they made more QC's - you'd just made them queenless!

 

[noumenon]

Sorry if that wasn't clear, allow me to rephrase. Two weeks ago, I created a nuc using one frame of stores, four of brood and one unsealed queen cell containing a fat larvae and masses of royal jelly. I fed them using a rapid feeder, but otherwise left them alone.

Today, two weeks later, the original queen cell is empty (presumed hatched) and I found a new developing queen in a non-defined queen cell that is only as old as the data of the split (i.e. must have been created from an existing egg at the time of the split).

I'm not worried that I didn't find the hatched queen, as she's unmarked and it was a very quick inspection.

Just wondering what they were up to and if I need to take any action, other than to keep checking for brood over the next couple of weeks from the first queen.

 

[Swarm]

Sometimes they will draw cells with a newly mated queen, almost as if they don't feel content with her. If she is laying a nice pattern, just break them down until she gets into full swing or alternatively, do nothing and more often than not, the bees break them down anyway. I had two colonies do the same this year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just wondering what they were up to and if I need to take any action, other than to keep checking for brood over the next couple of weeks from the first queen.

answer stays the same - you just said you made what was, in essence a very strong 'walkaway split'. Having just been made queenless, with plenty of material to make emergency QCs they did just that.
Your timeline would suggest that the queen in your 'chosen' QC emerged about a week before you inspected, it rarely happens that she would have mated and started laying for the bees to make further QCs by now, so the sealed QC would have been made at the time of the split - there could even be others there which were either torn down when the first queen emerged, or emerged subsequently. Really speaking, you should have left well alone for a month after the initial split to give the queen a chance to mate and start laying.
You definitely don't need to 'keep checking' for brood over the next few weeks, just leave them alone to do their thing.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Still puzzled as to why, on finding swarm preparations you took all the brood and crammed it into a nuc with (I assume) some nurse bees with one QC whilst leaving the queen and all the flying bees in the main hive, you were lucky they didn't still swarm as soon as they had material to make QCs again, especially as initially they were set to swarm on just four frames of brood.
You would have been better off just taking the queen away in a nuc with a mixture of drawn comb and foundation, a frame of stores and a good shake of bees, leaving them only a few yards away from the mother hive so that all the flying bees returned there.

 

[noumenon]

My approach is how CAFRE/UBKA teaches us how to do an artificial swarm in Northern Ireland.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My approach is how CAFRE/UBKA teaches us how to do an artificial swarm in Northern Ireland.

Oh dear oh dear

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh dear oh dear

Beginners

 

[Erichalfbee]

My approach is how CAFRE/UBKA teaches us how to do an artificial swarm in Northern Ireland.

Can you tell us what that method is so that we can help?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

reading back (carefully and more than once) it seems the OP has just got mixed up a bit with how to do a Pagden (or something close to it) no real harm done but maybe a bit more thought in future.
To do it 'by the book' the queen should have been moved to a new full size hive filled with foundation (personally I would just move her on a drawn frame with space to lay.
This 'new' hive goes in the location of the original hive. The 'old' hive with all the nurse bees, brood, QCs gets moved to one side, all QCs bar one get torn down, go back a week later and tear down any 'new' emergency QCs then close up and leave alone for three weeks.
In the meantime, the hive with the old queen in should draw out the foundation and function as a full colony again.
At the end of the season, marry the old queen to a gatepost and re-unite both 'halves' of the colony.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes a Pagden. It’s what I was taught and in my early years I remember asking if I had done it correctly.
Then I discovered nucing the queen was much easier.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Personally after seeing so many disastrous/suspect A/S s etc. I would still go for the 'queen away' method for a swarming colony, it's not as is the colony yield is paramount anyway

 

[Erichalfbee]

Personally after seeing so many disastrous/suspect A/S s etc. I would still go for the 'queen away' method for a swarming colony, it's not as is the colony yield is paramount anyway

Yes at least you still have a laying queen building up a colony if your big hive fails

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a Pagden. It’s what I was taught and in my early years I remember asking if I had done it correctly.
Then I discovered nucing the queen was much easier.

It's been the 'correct' way to do it for years (taught it meself on numerous occasions) and when it works, it works fine BUT ......................... for the backyard beekeeper who doesn't depent on the optimum yield, the queen away is an easier and more effective method, espesially as if it happens early on in the season it bring in not much less honey

 

[noumenon]

Yes, I essentially did a Pagden split. I had a nuc prepared but in hindsight I would have used a new full brood box.

Post split, we have:
Original location - original brood box, 1 frame of stores, foundation, original queen, flying bees, super around 30-40% full.
New location 5m away - nuc box, 4 frames sealed brood, QC, 1 frame of stores, rapid feeder on top.

I sadly had to discard three frames of brood from the edges as there was no room in the nuc and although there was a lot of stores, also brood at all stages in the middle (i.e. these were outer frames of the brood cluster). Rookie error, I should have moved the original brood box and put a new one in its place.

I'll leave the nuc a couple of weeks and hopefully by then I should have a mated and laying queen.

 

[John stockburn]

Yes, I essentially did a Pagden split. I had a nuc prepared but in hindsight I would have used a new full brood box.

Post split, we have:
Original location - original brood box, 1 frame of stores, foundation, original queen, flying bees, super around 30-40% full.
New location 5m away - nuc box, 4 frames sealed brood, QC, 1 frame of stores, rapid feeder on top.

I sadly had to discard three frames of brood from the edges as there was no room in the nuc and although there was a lot of stores, also brood at all stages in the middle (i.e. these were outer frames of the brood cluster). Rookie error, I should have moved the original brood box and put a new one in its place.

I'll leave the nuc a couple of weeks and hopefully by then I should have a mated and laying queen.

Discarded three frames of brood! !!!! Oh dear, why did you not make another nuc?

 

[noumenon]

They were the edges, so more store than brood. I didn't have a second nuc box.

 

[noumenon]

Checking today (21 days since the split). No sign of any brood yet. I didn't see a queen, but they have similar temperament to the queenright colony they were created from. How long would you wait to see the queen / brood before considering adding a queen? I assume with no new bees, there is a window beyond which adding a queen would fail anyway?

 

[drex]

I can't see whether you said the QC was sealed or unsealed, when you did the split. . Ireally start to worry if I do not see eggs 3 weeks after emergence. Yes, she will usually start laying before that, but on occasion it has even been over 3 weeks.