Joining two incompatible hives

[ShinySideUp]

I am queenless in one of my 14 x 12 hives, they have a lot of food but no eggs and no larvae. I also have a Paynes, 6-frame nuc box that has a queen, food, eggs and larvae and not a lot of room but the two hive types are incompatible so I don't know how I can unite the two hives. I can't put one on top of another because they don't fit.

What, if anything, can I do?

Shall I just wait until the Q- hive dies off then relocate the overflowing nuc box?

 

[Anduril]

You could cut up a piece of ply wood with a hole big enough for the nuc and the ply big enough for your brood box. Your combining set up would be nuc underneath newspaper on top, ply board on top of that and then brood box.
Once combined rearrange frames into hive, if the frames are compatible.

 

[Beefriendly]

Got a spare 14 x 12 brood box?
Stick the 6 frames from the nuc in there and newspaper unite.
Yes they will be different depths but not a real problem.

 

[pargyle]

I am queenless in one of my 14 x 12 hives, they have a lot of food but no eggs and no larvae. I also have a Paynes, 6-frame nuc box that has a queen, food, eggs and larvae and not a lot of room but the two hive types are incompatible so I don't know how I can unite the two hives. I can't put one on top of another because they don't fit.

What, if anything, can I do?

Shall I just wait until the Q- hive dies off then relocate the overflowing nuc box?

If your 14 x 12 is definitely queenless (you need to be certain that there is definitely no queen in there) you can just introduce the queen from your nuc - best to use one of the tried and trusted methods for queen introduction - then place the frames of brood from the Nuc into the 14 x 12 after removing some frames of food from the 14 x 12.

Then, the easiest way to combine the hives is to just put a queen excluder with a sheet of newspaper with a few slashes in it on top of the 14 x 12 and turn the nuc upside down on the top of it. You need something to cover the top of the 14 x 12 where the frames are exposed - you could probably use the nuc roof with a bit of duct tape round the edges. Then cover the nuc and the infil with a bin liner or covering of some sort so that the weather can't get into the nuc through the mesh floor.

The bees in the nuc will follow the queen pheremones down into the 14 x 12 and those in the 14 x 12 will be more interested in looking after the brood. Once the bees are through the newspaper they should mostly head down into the 14 x 12 and you can shake whatever is left in the nuc into the top of the 14 x 12 (put a super on top and shake any residual bees from the nuc into that and they will go down with a bit of persuasion or smoke.

The paynes nuc has a mesh floor but it's not separate and you can't easily put the nuc under a paynes 14 x 12 as it's going to like balancing a plate on an egg cup.

It's one of the (very minor IMO) disadvantages of Paynes Poly hives ...

I'm assuming your 14 x 12 is also a paynes poly - it won't make a lot of difference if it isn't - it's just a little less compatible.

You will then just need to redistribute the frames of stores into the 14 x 12.

Good luck.

 

[pargyle]

Got a spare 14 x 12 brood box?
Stick the 6 frames from the nuc in there and newspaper unite.

Yes ... that's the easy way but I suspect from the OP that he hasn't got a spare ...

 

[ShinySideUp]

Yes ... that's the easy way but I suspect from the OP that he hasn't got a spare ...

Correct, I haven't.

 

[ShinySideUp]

I've just had an idea that might be a little simpler than putting anything one on top of another. The queenless hive doesn't have that many bees so I could easily take six frames of stores out and put them to one side. Perhaps I could then use the newspaper method but with the paper separating the frames rather than brood boxes; a horizontal method you might say. Think this could work?

If I did this (or used the method suggested above by Pargyle) it would mean that I would be moving the nuc frames about 3 metres, won't I now have a problem with all the flying bees getting lost as their home will have been moved?

 

[pargyle]

I've just had an idea that might be a little simpler than putting anything one on top of another. The queenless hive doesn't have that many bees so I could easily take six frames of stores out and put them to one side. Perhaps I could then use the newspaper method but with the paper separating the frames rather than brood boxes; a horizontal method you might say. Think this could work?

If I did this (or used the method suggested above by Pargyle) it would mean that I would be moving the nuc frames about 3 metres, won't I now have a problem with all the flying bees getting lost as their home will have been moved?

Not if it's upside down on top of the 14 x 12 - there's only one way out for them and that's through the newspaper and out through the 14 x 12 - by the time they have got through that they will probably have accepted they are somewhere else and will re-orientate. If there's only one hive within 3.0m then the odds are that any dim ones that haven't twigged they have moved willl find their way back eventually ! Make sure there's nothing that they could move into within the 3m radius of the previous site .. don't give them the choice of anything to hang on to - not even a stand or a pile of bricks where the nuc was sited.

You'll find it hard to keep the two colonies separate trying to combine them horizontally - although there are people who have combined colonies using a squirt of air freshener to hide the pheremones - I haven't done this but there are people on here who have had success using this method. I'll leave them to tell you or you could seacrch the forum for air freshener.

 

[Beefriendly]

'll leave them to tell you or you could seacrch the forum for air freshener.

Yes, air freshener works well, no messing. Just give both lots a good squirt and stick together. Use it a lot of the time, saves a lot of faffing around pinning sheets of newspaper down.

 

[Millet]

Thank the Lord i do not mismatch equipment, i have done several unites splits and Nuc unites with no problem as i use only one format.

 

[ShinySideUp]

Thank the Lord i do not mismatch equipment, i have done several unites splits and Nuc unites with no problem as i use only one format.

It is only the hive size that is mismatched, the frames are the same, it's just that I never considered that the hives themselves would be better matched as well.


My problem with all these manipulations -- combining, feeding, inspecting, etc. -- is that the weather is now against us. The number of sunny periods is falling and we have had so much rain here in the last couple of weeks

 

[beeno]

I've just had an idea that might be a little simpler than putting anything one on top of another. The queenless hive doesn't have that many bees so I could easily take six frames of stores out and put them to one side. Perhaps I could then use the newspaper method but with the paper separating the frames rather than brood boxes; a horizontal method you might say. Think this could work?

Yes, this is a 'bonafide' method which I was taught on a course. Pros: it keeps them warm. Cons: you do have to 'envelope' one lot in very carefully without gaps otherwise they fight. I have done it myself successfully, but seen it when they end up fighting. Good luck if you do it!

 

[pargyle]

Yes, this is a 'bonafide' method which I was taught on a course. Pros: it keeps them warm. Cons: you do have to 'envelope' one lot in very carefully without gaps otherwise they fight. I have done it myself successfully, but seen it when they end up fighting. Good luck if you do it!

Yes ... I tried this in my long hive .. I had a division board with a varroa mesh centre and the space in the hive alongside the existing colony that I emptied of frames. There are three separate crown boards in the long hive so I was able to seal the crown board to the division board over the existing colony and I sealed the entrance up whilst I put the second colony in the empty half of the hive.

Closed them up, opened the entrance and all seemed fine, left them for a couple of days and then removed the division board. Worked a treat .... but... the Long Deep Hive (as per Dartingtons etc,) is an ideal shape for this type of manipulation. It's a beggar for lots of other reasons though !!

Keeping the colonies separate whilst you do it in conventional box is going to be really difficult - get it wrong and world war three will break out.

 

[drex]

Go with the air freshener. Easy.

 

[pargyle]

Go with the air freshener. Easy.

Still got the problem of getting the two incompatible boxes together - which was the problem the OP had originally ~ If they had a second 14 x 12 brood box easy as pie ...

With the kit they have ... not so easy.

 

[Anduril]

Still got the problem of getting the two incompatible boxes together - which was the problem the OP had originally ~ If they had a second 14 x 12 brood box easy as pie ...

With the kit they have ... not so easy.

Very easy, the frames are the same, it just means alternating the frames into the hive, with air freshener or a sugar syrup solution flavoured with peppermint essence or any strong food grade essence sprayed over the bees and frames. The frames left can be stored in the nuc box for next year (which could be placed in a freezer to kill wax moth).

 

[pargyle]

Very easy, the frames are the same, it just means alternating the frames into the hive, with air freshener or a sugar syrup solution flavoured with peppermint essence or any strong food grade essence sprayed over the bees and frames. The frames left can be stored in the nuc box for next year (which could be placed in a freezer to kill wax moth).

I've never used air freshener to combine colonies so I'll take your word for that ... sounds to me like there will be a lot of bees in the air. I've just put clearer boards on two hives (and I was organised and quick !) even doing this there were quite a few bees coming out to see what was going on .... I try not to be too invasive with them at this time of the year ... and pulling frames out of one box and putting them in another after making space ... I wouldn't do it.

Plenty of options for the OP though - that's what's really good about this forum - you don't just get what's in the bee books regurgitated. Beekeeping is all about doing it the way you think is best ... after considering the options available ... hope the OP comes back and tells us what they have done and how well it went.

We've all had those - oops, should have done it differently moments ! Me more than most ....

 

[Anduril]

I've never used air freshener to combine colonies so I'll take your word for that ... sounds to me like there will be a lot of bees in the air. I've just put clearer boards on two hives (and I was organised and quick !) even doing this there were quite a few bees coming out to see what was going on .... I try not to be too invasive with them at this time of the year ... and pulling frames out of one box and putting them in another after making space ... I wouldn't do it.

Plenty of options for the OP though - that's what's really good about this forum - you don't just get what's in the bee books regurgitated. Beekeeping is all about doing it the way you think is best ... after considering the options available ... hope the OP comes back and tells us what they have done and how well it went.

We've all had those - oops, should have done it differently moments ! Me more than most ....

Yes you will have a lot of bees in the air, but I have offered an alternative to air freshener, the flavoured sugar syrup sprayed over bees and frames. They will be confused, but no fighting. If there are frames of stores left over they can be used in the spring, also there may be frames to discard. But it is better to strengthen a hive to get through winter.

 

[enrico]

Air freshener is the way to go. Don't douse them, get the main hive ready for where the new frames are going to go, that means removing enough frames that are not being used, a quick squirt in each box and then put the frames straight in to the gap provided. Works for me every time. I have not had an air freshener combination fail since I started using it.
E

 

[madasafish]

Air freshener is the way to go. Don't douse them, get the main hive ready for where the new frames are going to go, that means removing enough frames that are not being used, a quick squirt in each box and then put the frames straight in to the gap provided. Works for me every time. I have not had an air freshener combination fail since I started using it.
E

I use air freshener for uniting. No evidence of dead bees and great for uniting mating nucs to overwinter . Used since 2013 with 100% success.