In need of a cunning plan

[JamezF]

I was replacing old comb in (double brood) hives today by removing the bottom box, adding a new box of foundation, transferring over any frames of brood I happened to find in the old bottom box. There wasn't much in most cases, but one colony had managed to fix the frames into the box so tight that I wasn't able to remove any. There's no longer any "wiggle room" in the box and attempting to lift a frame (next to the hive wall) straight up just resulted in the top bar pulling off. However, I can see brood on some of the frames, so it's possible the queen may also be there.

I couldn't think of anything I could do with the kit I had with me, so I just returned the box to the stack and closed it back up so I could go away and have a think about it.

The best I can come up with for the time being is to take the box off, stand it on its side and from the bottom use a hive tool or probably something longer to try to cut around the broken frame, hopefully either loosening to the point where it can be removed and the rest of the box inspected normally, or perhaps so I can get enough wiggle room to work it free.

Any other ideas how to deal with it?

James

 

[enrico]

I was replacing old comb in (double brood) hives today by removing the bottom box, adding a new box of foundation, transferring over any frames of brood I happened to find in the old bottom box. There wasn't much in most cases, but one colony had managed to fix the frames into the box so tight that I wasn't able to remove any. There's no longer any "wiggle room" in the box and attempting to lift a frame (next to the hive wall) straight up just resulted in the top bar pulling off. However, I can see brood on some of the frames, so it's possible the queen may also be there.

I couldn't think of anything I could do with the kit I had with me, so I just returned the box to the stack and closed it back up so I could go away and have a think about it.

The best I can come up with for the time being is to take the box off, stand it on its side and from the bottom use a hive tool or probably something longer to try to cut around the broken frame, hopefully either loosening to the point where it can be removed and the rest of the box inspected normally, or perhaps so I can get enough wiggle room to work it free.

Any other ideas how to deal with it? Am I missing something as usual?

James

Can't you just use a j hive tool to lift a centre frame?

 

[Boston Bees]

Can't you just use a j hive tool to lift a centre frame?

He's saying that if he does that, the top bar lifts off, I believe.

 

[enrico]

He's saying that if he does that, the top bar lifts off, I believe.

I can understand that on a frame next to the side wall but a centre frame? What no nails?

 

[jeff33]

Hacksaw blade from underneath, thin and flexible enough to get in the tight gaps. You may have to torch it once or twice as wax/propolis gets stuck in the fine teeth.

 

[Boston Bees]

I can understand that on a frame next to the side wall but a centre frame? What no nails?

I am wondering if perhaps someone had used staples ..... or hammered the nails in from the top .... ?

 

[jeff33]

I can understand that on a frame next to the side wall but a centre frame? What no nails?

You should even have space for the jtool to fit under the lugs and pull up that way.

 

[JamezF]

I can understand that on a frame next to the side wall but a centre frame? What no nails?

All nailed up, but I tried a frame in the middle and it was just the same. They've done a damn fine job of it. I don't think I've ever had a box that I just couldn't get into before. The frames are all nailed together too, two nails in each side bar.

I suspect I've become a victim of not always bothering to inspect the lower box.

James

 

[JamezF]

I am wondering if perhaps someone had used staples ..... or hammered the nails in from the top .... ?

No, gimp pins in from both sides.

James

 

[JamezF]

Hacksaw blade from underneath, thin and flexible enough to get in the tight gaps. You may have to torch it once or twice as wax/propolis gets stuck in the fine teeth.

Ah, yes, that might work better. I might even have a pad saw somewhere with more coarse teeth. Or even a bow saw blade. I may end up taking a selection

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can't you just use a j hive tool to lift a centre frame?

That's one of the reasons Murray McGregor has banned J tools, surefire way of either snapping lugs off or ripping top bars off on stuck frames, a J tool is not designed to lever frames out of a tight box

 

[JamezF]

That's one of the reasons Murray McGregor has banned J tools, surefire way of either snapping lugs off or ripping top bars off on stuck frames, a J tool is not designed to lever frames out of a tight box

Interesting. He requires that they're released sideways before lifting them out?

James

 

[0bee-1]

Interesting. He requires that they're released sideways before lifting them out?

James

yes thats how i do it although i have langs and commercials so short lugs

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Interesting. He requires that they're released sideways before lifting them out?

James

yes - which is how the J tool should be used

 

[enrico]

yes - which is how the J tool should be used

I have never snapped a lug or a top bar in 40 years!

 

[enrico]

There's a lot to be said for having cheap slim frames and plastic spacers

 

[pete darbyshire]

I presume they are hoffman frames ,and you have 12 in.
I use a THIN hive tool down the hoffman wedges on a centre frame to break the propolis seal, before levering out with a j tool.

Try 11 frames and a dummy board.
When really stuck, I have put a small lengths of 3 x 2" wood under the ends of the frames and pushed the brood box down. (on a flat surface of course)

 

[JamezF]

I usually do use a dummy board. I can't imagine why I wouldn't have done so in this case, though brain fade is always a possibility.

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

wood under the ends of the frames and pushed the brood box down

This works.

 

[Antipodes]

or perhaps so I can get enough wiggle room to work it free.

As others have said, work the hive tool down between the lugs vertically and then apply careful sideways pressure. Once freed somewhat, lift with the j tool. Go for the most likely one first. Smoke down to push the queen away from your lethal hive tool as you work in case (as you say) she is there. This is a langstroth hive that hadn't been opened by the previous owner for about three years. This is the top box but the frames lower down were shocking. I got them all out but one end did break off.