Import of NZ bees into UK

[mbc]

I see Paynes bee farm are offering nucs of NZ bees on nat frames. Presumably these will be recently housed packages offered for sale. Anybody know any better ?

 

[Poly Hive]

Why would you assume that?

If I was buying a package I would (to be honest) want just that, not a value added item.

If as you argue they have done a package to a nuc it would have been done last year, no way they could have done it this year as far as I can see. Unless the south west has had fab weather in secret and their nucs are on five frames of brood as mine are certainly not.

Why not phone them and ask before knocking them in public? I have no connection with them at all but can sympathise with their rep being tried in public.

Had a person two days ago give us a whole bunch of lies on Trip Advisor, which is now being with drawn so it is a sensitive subject. So please be aware that making suggestions that you are not sure of is dangerous and may be open to legal action. Uncomfortable reading possibly but when you are messing with peoples livelihoods things become serious.

PH

 

[mbc]

Wind your neck in PH, I have not knocked, tried their rep in public or disparaged them in any way.
As far as I know, no imports of bees on frames are allowed so I was merely musing on the technicalities of offering NZ bees on nat frames. You could have hit the nail on the head with suggesting these are overwintered nucs but something about the wording in their advert made me think that was not the case.
I have done business with Paynes bee farm before and found them to be nothing but pleasant and excellent to do business with and would hate to think my recent post could be " messing with peoples livelihoods " even if I dissagree on principal with importing bees.

 

[Poly Hive]

I see Paynes bee farm are offering nucs of NZ bees on nat frames. Presumably these will be recently housed packages offered for sale. Anybody know any better ?


Read it again. The problem with text is you mean one thing and the reader reads something else. Recently housed packages.... in Feb?

Then you say anyone know better? Hence my suggestion you phone them as who knows better than them... and you can see how it spirals down from there.



PH

 

[mbc]

NZ NUC (BS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A six frame nucleus with a marked and laying queen, with brood in all stages on at least 3 frames. These bees are imported from New Zealand and are supplied on BS brood frames in our custom designed British Standard polystyrene nucleus hive, which is yours to keep - ideal for collecting swarms, splitting colonies etc. These frames are compatible with National and WBC hives.

We expect these bees to be available in April."


I read this advert and thought the most likely origin of these nucs would be an imported package installed once in the UK on national frames, established until there are at least 3 frames of brood then sold.
I've gone over my earlier post a few times, and unless I'm being particularly thick, I cant see how it could be interpreted other than how i meant it.
I will phone Paynes in the morning and post an apology if my earlier presumption was incorrect

 

[dilys]

This is what the add actually says:

"A six frame nucleus with a marked and laying queen, with brood in all stages on at least 3 frames. These bees are imported from New Zealand and are supplied on BS brood frames in our custom designed British Standard polystyrene nucleus hive, which is yours to keep - ideal for collecting swarms, splitting colonies etc. These frames are compatible with National and WBC hives.

We expect these bees to be available in April...."

MBC said they were NZ bees which is what the add says. He also said PRESUMABLY they were from a package hived here. If not they were imported on frames. I would imagine that importing brood from NZ is risky and probably illegal so MBC's presumption was either fair or generous.

Perhaps the add should have said that only the queens were imported but that's not what it said.

Perhaps PolyHive should contact Paynes to see if they meant what they said.

 

[dilys]

Sorry MBC we posted almost simultaneously so I did not see your last post.

 

[Poly Hive]

What you have posted is nothing like what you put up for a start.

Now we are in April not 27th Feb.

This is where confusion rules, you had read that info, posted on the strength of it, and what am I to think?

I said and repeat one needs to be careful with others reputations.

PH

 

[mbc]

Point taken PH but maybe you are being overly precious of others reputations - there's currently a good discussion on bee-l about hiving packages in cold temps

ps. no worries Dilys

 

[Tom Bick]

MBC If you call Paynes tomorrow they will more likely thank you for the plug

 

[Friar Tuck]

Is there an argument for importing queens but not colonys/packages ? Are there country's were is is ok to import from like Germany if you were looking for AMM bee? Or are all imports bad and should be banned and we should be producing our own stock ?

Just a bit confused as i have been reading members have imported bees from Greece and other countries.

 

[Hombre]

What you have posted is nothing like what you put up for a start.

Now we are in April not 27th Feb.

This is where confusion rules, you had read that info, posted on the strength of it, and what am I to think?

I said and repeat one needs to be careful with others reputations.

PH

What indeed do we think? Most people would have a look to see exactly what the establishment was actually offering, rather than commenting blindly about the post, which made no mention of any form of date.

MBC's post I found to be neutral and invited not speculation, but was by way of a question that I didn't find in any way accusatory. Perhaps I'm thick, but if I am I'm delusional enough not to know about it.

I suspect that you are strung up on your own personal experiences of late and seeing bogey men under the bed as a result. A bit like being broken into, it's all very traumatic, realise it or not at the time.

I appreciate that TripAdviswor, bees foraging dust and flitting tenants all take their toll, but best you take advice that you gave me some time ago and try not to put words into the posts or mouths of others.

 

[Norton]

Imports versus home-grown.
In the current general situation in the UK, some beekeepers are interested in breeding "native' black bees which are or near AMM. If these beekeepers are SERIOUS about their projects then of course they have to exercise some sort of control over their matings. There are only two ways to do this: artificial insemination or a RELIABLE mating station. In both cases any the imports do not or should not play a role or influence the project at all.

So, for bee breeders such as myself, that export SELECTED queens to the UK and other EU countries, it is hard to understand the argument against the imports, which as I have said in a previous post, come from selected genetic stock. Even with this stock we sometimes get mis -matings and the result is not always what we intended.

Now we are going to hear that the imported drones will mate with the local bees in the UK - these are mongrel anyway, so what difference does it make and as I've said above the AMM enthusiasts should be controlling their matings, if they want to get anywhere. For the ones that don't breed bees, they either have to put up with they have or buy in queens every two years.

Hybridisation does not always bring about an increase in aggressiveness - it all depends on the genetic combination. For example carnica X AMM is lethal and is one of the worst crosses imaginable.

This problem with AMM seems to be endemic to the British Isles. In the USA, for example, they are falling over backwards to get permits to import genetic material to use in crossings with the stock already in the USA. Much stock in the USA is hybridised and if we leave out the African element in the equation they do not have the problems that the UK has.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[hedgerow pete]

i dont mind and in fact want people like norton to import queens, i want tou se he vast skills. i dont mind queens coming from NZ either, but i dont want whole sale bee packages of nuc and i want to see better bio security checks on there way in to make sure they are clean rather than the seller telling the custums they are clean

 

[Somerford]

i dont mind and in fact want people like norton to import queens, i want tou se he vast skills. i dont mind queens coming from NZ either, but i dont want whole sale bee packages of nuc and i want to see better bio security checks on there way in to make sure they are clean rather than the seller telling the custums they are clean

Pete - this is exactly it - we need to be 100% certain the bio-security is being adhered to. Like I said earlier, I beg to challenge anyone who would be able to 100% be sure the incoming packages were free from any diseases (either those already in the UK or others that aren't yet)

Until this can be ensured, surely we should not be importing any. Ok this has been going on for years, but we could stop. It only takes a decision !

S

 

[Somerford]

Imports versus home-grown.
In the current general situation in the UK, some beekeepers are interested in breeding "native' black bees which are or near AMM. If these beekeepers are SERIOUS about their projects then of course they have to exercise some sort of control over their matings. There are only two ways to do this: artificial insemination or a RELIABLE mating station. In both cases any the imports do not or should not play a role or influence the project at all.

So, for bee breeders such as myself, that export SELECTED queens to the UK and other EU countries, it is hard to understand the argument against the imports, which as I have said in a previous post, come from selected genetic stock. Even with this stock we sometimes get mis -matings and the result is not always what we intended.

Now we are going to hear that the imported drones will mate with the local bees in the UK - these are mongrel anyway, so what difference does it make and as I've said above the AMM enthusiasts should be controlling their matings, if they want to get anywhere. For the ones that don't breed bees, they either have to put up with they have or buy in queens every two years.

Best regards
Norton.

Norton - I'd be the first to admit my queen breeding programme is non-existant. I rely on using queen cells produced by my colonies to re-populate my colonies as and when, I do not graft, I am often surprised that supercedure has happened the previous Autumn, so then I have no way of knowing what the new season will bring for that colony.

This is mostly down to time, or lack of it, but my colonies are healthy and produce a satisfactory yield. Each colony differs in characteristics, but that can change with the day rather than a trait. If I am stuck for a queen at short notice I'd rather put the feelers out locally than rely on a queen from another area/unknown source.

If one can purchase a queen (such as any of yours) that have been reliably mated, and the genetics are similar then that is a good thing. Unfortunately economics are behind the import of packages ....supply and demand !

And as long as it's legal, it will continue.

My push to get answers from the Co-Op continues though....silence on their part at the moment..

regards

S

 

[madasafish]

I am surprised the BBKA don't have a formal policy on the issue and make packages available through Associations for their members at advantageous prices.. so reducing the risks of imports and their commercial viability..

Which really is the only way: make importing less commercially viable. When I tried to acquire bees, there were none available locally and I and other newbies had to buy from commercial suppliers...

And for newcomers the lack of information and clarity on the issue makes chosing a supplier of bees make buying a sceond hand car look simple by comparison...

A simple guide with an list of approved sellers is in my view the minimum required to help newcomers.

 

[mbc]

I am surprised the BBKA don't have a formal policy on the issue and make packages available through Associations for their members at advantageous prices.. so reducing the risks of imports and their commercial viability..

Which really is the only way: make importing less commercially viable. When I tried to acquire bees, there were none available locally and I and other newbies had to buy from commercial suppliers...

And for newcomers the lack of information and clarity on the issue makes chosing a supplier of bees make buying a sceond hand car look simple by comparison...

A simple guide with an list of approved sellers is in my view the minimum required to help newcomers.

I think that scale is the problem here. There are probably thousands of excellent suppliers in the UK , but they only have a few colonies each available. As soon as people start making a living from supplying bees I suspect that the effort required to find a large enough market can only be justified if supply can be guaranteed, usually through imports. Beekeepings a risky business and the larger the numbers the larger the risk.

 

[Somerford]

For everyone's info.

I have today tried to no avail to speak with Paul Monaghan at Co-Op Manchester's head office.

I have though been provided with the email of their Environmental Advisor, Naomi Davis who I have emailed this morning demanding answers and a response.

In it I said that at this stage I would like to give them the opportunity to respond to the email before I take it further as this seems only fair. Should I not receive an response in the next 48 hours, I will consider letting the forum have her email to add more pressure (in the hope the emails are factual, clean and above board!)

I do know, however, that one forum member has gone to the press already.

regards

S

 

[Tom Bick]

Does anyone have any idea what the market is as in the figures required to supply the demand. Its all right talking about banning imports ect but until you have a grasp of what is required its only talk.