Import of NZ bees into UK

[gavin]

Hope that it was a healthy lunch, Lion Tamer!

I'd be worried if it was my bees.

I was worried about my bees back when imidacloprid was first permitted on OSR but now, many years down the line, there is absolutely no sign that it is having any effect on them. That might jar with those wanting things to be otherwise, but there you are. However I shouldn't take this thread off at a tangent as we've done that one before.

Any chance of dropping words like 'slippery' from this conversation?

G.

 

[oliver90owner]

AHH, so it is just queens.

I am now wondering where you are sourcing the workers. From Scotland?

I am sure, if your queens are mixed with British bees or those from wherever you source them, those queens will be potentially exposed to all the diseases going in the UK, already.

Had you been clearer from the outset, I for one would not have been so 'anti'. 400 queens poses a far lower bio-security risk than 12 million bees as packages.

As it is I am now well entrenched with the pro-Swinbee group, if there us one.

As for your mate crg, please tell him he is on my ignore list.

RAB

 

[Brosville]

"there is absolutely no sign that it is having any effect on them" - typical pseudo-scientific tosh - of course totally overlooking cocktail effects and the fact that the "coup de grace" may be administered by other than the causative factor (which thence remains seen as "innocent"), and yet again ignoring the scientific "caution" which should be exercised when dealing with such deeply toxic substances... shows how effective the "undue influence" of "Big Pestco" is in all areas of life........

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Hope that it was a healthy lunch, Lion Tamer!



I was worried about my bees back when imidacloprid was first permitted on OSR but now, many years down the line, there is absolutely no sign that it is having any effect on them. That might jar with those wanting things to be otherwise, but there you are. However I shouldn't take this thread off at a tangent as we've done that one before.

Any chance of dropping words like 'slippery' from this conversation?

G.

Yes, sorry about the word Slippery - no offence meant - just trying to indicate that some questions appear to be neatly side-stepped.

The reason I introduced neonics into the thread is because I feel their use is indicative of the incongruity of Plan Bee Vs what the co-op are doing on the ground. I think this sums it my reasoning....

Co-op says: No-one knows for certain what is causing bee losses. Explanations include: bad weather, pesticides, importing of non-native bee species, viruses and a mite called Varroa.

Co-op does: Imports non-native bees

Co-op says: Neonicontinoids are a group of pesticides that have been linked to bee declines elsewhere in Europe

Co-op does: Uses neonicotinoid pesticides on their farms.

Co-op says: The native black honeybee, with its better ability to cope with the British weather, could help reverse the dramatic decline in UK honeybee numbers

Co-op does: Imports non-native bees.

I repeat, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

At this point on the other site certain folk would be banned and they would go off in a huff and set up their own forum.

I seem to recall a saying - "what goes around comes around..."

No idea what it means but it sound appropriate.

It's only beekeeping guys. This thread is getting silly.

Valid point Rooftops. Publicly posting private messages is not on. Anyone who does that will lose the respect of others on the forum at the very least but seems to have gotten away with it.

I've just read the last 2 days posts and I've nearly lost the will to live. Back to the BBKA I think!

 

[mbc]

AHH, so it is just queens.

I am now wondering where you are sourcing the workers. From Scotland?

I am sure, if your queens are mixed with British bees or those from wherever you source them, those queens will be potentially exposed to all the diseases going in the UK, already.

Had you been clearer from the outset, I for one would not have been so 'anti'. 400 queens poses a far lower bio-security risk than 12 million bees as packages.

As it is I am now well entrenched with the pro-Swinbee group, if there us one.

As for your mate crg, please tell him he is on my ignore list.

RAB

Have you not heard whats been going on north of the border ? I'd be far happier with NZ packages coming into my area than I would Scottish bees considering the problems the jocks have.
Do I remember somewhere in the mist of posts in this thread Murray stating there would be absolutely no cross over of bees or equipment from his operation up north in efb country ?

 

[Nellie]

Not sure I see the value of entering a discussion determined to be "pro" one side which makes you "anti" the other, it's one of the least useful traits of internet discussion which sadly beekeeping isn't immune from.

Whether you agree with ITLD's approach or not, I do applaud his persistence in a discussion thread that regularly teeters from the ridiculous to the absurd.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I've just read the last 2 days posts and I've nearly lost the will to live. Back to the BBKA I think!

The way to resolve a dispute is to keep talking. It may get heated at times but dialogue is the only sensible way to come to some kind of understanding. If we had all given up at post number 20 we would have much less understanding of the project.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Not sure I see the value of entering a discussion determined to be "pro" one side which makes you "anti" the other, it's one of the least useful traits of internet discussion which sadly beekeeping isn't immune from.

Whether you agree with ITLD's approach or not, I do applaud his persistence in a discussion thread that regularly teeters from the ridiculous to the absurd.

Again, apologies for the use of the word "pro" but it was just a simple way of differentiating the differing views on the subject and how the protagonists are approaching the debate.

 

[mbc]

Whether you agree with ITLD's approach or not, I do applaud his persistence in a discussion thread that regularly teeters from the ridiculous to the absurd.[/QUOTE]

Occasionally ridiculous and absurd maybe, but for me this thread has been the best on the forum yet.
It has discussed issues at the very core of UK beekeeping and aside from some posters making arses of themselves there's been some quality content from both sides of the fence - definately more to chew on than the usual twaddle ( IMHO )

 

[Into the lions den]

Also interesting that the "Pro" camp in this debate are happy to use Plan Bee as an example of how great the co-op are yet, when pesticides are mentioned, we get the rather slippery reply that they are different parts of a loosely connected organisation. You can't have it both ways.

What you got was not a slippery response. I am the beekeeper involved, not the farm manager or the agronomist or whatever, so I have given you my feel for the issue. For a full and guaranteed to be factually sound answer on the neonics issue you will need to address it to a properly informed person. To me that would be your local farm manager, or perhaps the head of arable farming based in Manchester.

I am not all that worried about neonics personally (that was a personal rather than corporate observation) as, whilst there may be SOME circumstances when they cause issues, in general they reduce overall pesticide exposure, and where we have met them already there has been no problem whatsoever. Will that invariably be the case? I do not 100% know, but for now I am relatively relaxed about it and not responsive to scares. My friends in France were in the thick of the imidacloprid event and lost a lot of bees. Even they now think it was something else as yet not identified that was their colonies downfall.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Just who do you want to make a statement? They have not been completely silent, but there is really no one person in the Co-op actually suitably qualified to give the responses I can give you.

As I said, no offence meant.
But one minute you say no one else at the co-op can answer the questions then a few posts further on you tell me to ask someone else at the co-op.

 

[Skyhook]

1. I have already answered this. Only queens are coming from NZ this year.

From post 296

ITLD - could you indicate where the bees to go with the queens will be sourced from. Presumably they aren't local to the areas mentioned ?S

From post 302

Not 100% decided yet. All depends on the health certificate, how reliable I think that is, and the cost. They are after all only the starter bees, after 6 weeks all the bees will be descendants of the queen. I have several offers. I will not buy bees without a reliable health certificate.

I can assure you absolutely it is not New Zealand. Air freight cost is extreme.

From post 306

AHH, so it is just queens.

I am now wondering where you are sourcing the workers. From Scotland?

I am sure, if your queens are mixed with British bees or those from wherever you source them, those queens will be potentially exposed to all the diseases going in the UK, already.

Had you been clearer from the outset, I for one would not have been so 'anti'. 400 queens poses a far lower bio-security risk than 12 million bees as packages.

RAB

From post 582.

Perhaps you should read the thread before implying ITLD is being secretive?

 

[Into the lions den]

As I said, no offence meant.
But one minute you say no one else at the co-op can answer the questions then a few posts further on you tell me to ask someone else at the co-op.

The two positions are perfectly consistent.

I know about this bee project better than anyone else.
The farm management teams know about crop culture issues better than anyone else.

You are dealing with a vast and subdivided entity in the Co-op. There is no one person you can call who has the overall knowledge of every aspect of their operations from farming through retailing, marketing, banking, travel shops, funeral homes, farms and heaven knows all what more besides. Thats all I am saying.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

The two positions are perfectly consistent.

I know about this bee project better than anyone else.
The farm management teams know about crop culture issues better than anyone else.

Fair enough, I accept that. I guess I just thought it a little unusual that you wouldn't have an interest in what pesticides were being used around your bees.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Perhaps, ITLD, with your contacts at the Co-op you could pesuade them to get someone from Plan Bee to come onto the forum to address some of the issues that you can't directly answer yourself. Surely there must be someone in charge of the Plan Bee campaign who can address some of the ethical issues that we have been to-ing and fro-ing with here.

 

[Into the lions den]

Fair enough, I accept that. I guess I just thought it a little unusual that you wouldn't have an interest in what pesticides were being used around your bees.

Oh but I do, and as mentioned earlier the issues have been discussed. Only point that brought out misunderstanding is my lack of fear of neonics and not being worried too much about their use on the farm, especially on non target crops for the bees. My lack of fear is born from the same experience based root as Gavins. No sign whatsoever of any negative results over several years of exposure.

 

[Into the lions den]

Perhaps, ITLD, with your contacts at the Co-op you could pesuade them to get someone from Plan Bee to come onto the forum to address some of the issues that you can't directly answer yourself. Surely there must be someone in charge of the Plan Bee campaign who can address some of the ethical issues that we have been to-ing and fro-ing with here.

Actually, so far as I am aware, there is no single person in charge of Plan Bee right at this time. It is a multi department function with several people having their own little bit of input as a side duty from their main work.

I will however ask later today about this. Do not expect anyone with any level of expertise on all aspects however as I do not think such a person exists right now following the relevant manager leaving a fortnight ago to join Fairtrade.

 

[DanBee]

I was worried about my bees back when imidacloprid was first permitted on OSR but now, many years down the line, there is absolutely no sign that it is having any effect on them.

Gavin - wary of the tangent also, just to confirm with my own experiences: we have migrated for the past five seasons onto winter rape treated with neonicotinoids. No adverse effects. We have also sited bees close to hundreds of acres of neonicotinoid treated maze - no ill effects. We work with a number of farms employing philosophies across the spectrum from fully organic to intensively managed, and thus feel well qualified to compare outcomes as some bees will be on treated crops whilst others are not, same region, same season.

The more interesting debate for those migrating to rape is that of traditional vs. reformed hybrid varieties and nectar flow. I'd be interested in your comments on this (via PM - tangent alert!)

Topics such as neonicotinoids will always risk taking this thread off at a tangent because a significant minority of posters are interested in a campaign or a conspiracy, ideally both

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Oh but I do, and as mentioned earlier the issues have been discussed. Only point that brought out misunderstanding is my lack of fear of neonics and not being worried too much about their use on the farm, especially on non target crops for the bees. My lack of fear is born from the same experience based root as Gavins. No sign whatsoever of any negative results over several years of exposure.

OK, I also accept that. Again, it was just your answer "I believe not" that implied you were either not fully aware or not interested what pesticides were being used.