Icicles in Hive

[Finman]

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The secret of Apis mellifera succes is that it learned to use tree cavity as a nest. Other Apis species use open hive and cannot live in cold climate.


So, the hives duty is to save energy. Wood has a good insulation value. Living in stone cavity is not possible because stone tranfers heat away.

Why don't you help the hive in energy saving?

In Japan most A, ceranea lives in stone cavities in open air.

 

[oliver90owner]

The first place to start insulating a house is the roof - because heat rises.

I was always under the impression that draughts were the place to start - more cost effective, almost immediate payback and all that. However, Rooftops is correct in that the first 'actual' insulation installed should be in the roof.

So says it all really; prevent through-draughts and insulate above.

RAB

 

[Somerford]

Well, it will be interesting to see how the colony in the Beehaus does - huge open mesh floor area, surrounded by sealed cavity plastic....with a gap here and there that was sealed by the bees in the Autumn.....

Interesting that the WBC always seems further ahead than the others in the spring - probably due to the airgap/space that helps insulate

I once left a glass coverboard on a WBC many years ago and it was simply staggering the amount of water condensed on it - all those little pairs of lungs caused all that ? I thought. It also made me think that the old idea of a quilt on top/insulation above the crown board was not in the best interests of the bees as the moisture laden air needs to expand and dissipate

We'll see in the Spring !

S

 

[oliver90owner]

Well, it will be interesting to see how the colony in the Beehaus does - huge open mesh floor area, surrounded by sealed cavity plastic....with a gap here and there that was sealed by the bees in the Autumn.....

Somerford,

In most respects the beehaus is no different than a Dartington.

Had mine been in use this winter the bees would no doubt have had the benefit of extra insulation in those 'cavernous' side panels (to reduce convective losses and isolate the brood nest from the rest of the circulating air in those caverns) and the extra insulant filling those 'thin plastic coverboards with superbly convecting free air between' (that is if I had not simply replaced the top coverboards with a single sheet of ply, with insulation over).

The OMF should be no more of an issue than with a National. The brood should be isolated from the unused sections and will only be on 'around' ten frames.

My Dartingtons are always prompt with spring build-up, but I normally insulate the sides adjacent to the brood area - which allows them a larger effective brooding area.

The Dartingtons were easily modifed to allow a board to be slid in under the cluster to reduce any serious draughts (AND it does not disappear into the distance, either!) but still allow a large area for bottom ventilation.

Another difference is that the cluster is recommended to be well away from the entrance with the Dartington. Two very good reasons. Firstly any dead bees on the floor will not so easily block the entrance, and second, springtime expansion is carried out by simply adding frames either side of the brood nest, without disturbing the colony (not even removing their complete roof for the most part).

I like my Dartingtons more than the beehaus, thus far. The beehaus is in good use at present - as a good place for storing nearly sixty made-up frames until needed in the spring!

Regards, RAB

 

[Poly Hive]

Just for interest, and ther research was pre net so is lost really I suppose now.

At Craibstone they did considerable work into over wintering, measuring outside temps against cluster temps, and working out the optimum cluster size.

They tried a super colony (75,000bees) for over wintering but oddly it failed. The theory was too much Co2, as I recall.

The biggest killer is damp not cold.

PH

 

[Dishmop]

Last week when I checked the quilt boxes on my Warre hives the wood shavings had no damp at all and neither did the canvas bottoms of the boxes.
No OMF.

 

[Finman]

The first place to start insulating a house is the roof - because heat rises.

I was always under the impression that draughts were the place to start - more cost effective, almost immediate payback and all that. However, Rooftops is correct in that the first 'actual' insulation installed should be in the roof.

So says it all really; prevent through-draughts and insulate above.

RAB

I must say that you in uk know little about insulation. how is your home insulation?

Have you in winter bottom away, doors open, insulation only above ceiling?

 

[Busy Bee]

I have been reading this thread with regards insulation. Surely someone must know how to insulate a dwelling (hive).

Upon construction of a house you must place 100mm (4") kingspan (sterofoam) beneath the finished floor of house (OMF). The cavities must have a minimum of 100mm (4") kingspan or 150mm (recommedned). The Ceiling must have a minimum of 300mm (12") glass blanket or (rockwool). So there lies the answer:_

your insulation starts in the floor and very relevant with bee hive as bee hive tend to be raised allowing frost to penatate upwards throught the floor.

My bee hives have insulation in the floor. 1st place to insulate. However there in no point having insulation in the floor if there in none above the crown board. They both go together like wheels and a steering wheel.

Busy Bee

 

[Dishmop]

Not too sure that frost goes upwards...

Think you'll find that frost comes from the damp in the air...downwards.

Used to park my vans in an open barn and even in weather like this they never had frost on windscreens.....

I have driven in Sweden at this time of year and not seen people de-icing their screens in the morning because there is no damp like in the UK.

however,, somebody who has been educated will give you the scientific explaination..

 

[Busy Bee]

Here in Ireland we have a very high moisture content in the air. If you have lived in a mobile caravan (static) you will find in winter time the frost penetrates up through the floor, its only 3/4" thick chipboard. Now imagine what happens when its -15 C and you have a blowing frost with fog like we have have last week with minus temps in the daytime as well.

Now here in Ireland we have an industry standard of 75mm insulation in the floor of a new dwelling, you won't get a building certificate without it.


Busy Bee

 

[RoofTops]

Busy Bee, your answer gave the game away - 12" in the roof, a lot less everywhere else.

Draught proofing and floor and wall insulation plus triple glazed windows like they have in Finland are needed to create a well insulated house but the bottom line, no pun intended, is the greatest thickness of insulation goes on top. That was all I was pointing out. If I thought people wanted a treatise on house insulating...

Conduction is a different matter which is why there is an old saying that if you have three blankets put two underneath you and one on top if you are sleeping on the ground. So if you put your hives flat on the ground then some sort of floor insulation would be very useful but most people have them on stands and usually with OMFs.

On a related note does anyone know how much better at insulating a WBC hive is compared to a normal single walled hive? I suspect the answer is not as great as might be thought given the lack of anything in the cavity and the famous WBC gaps. Houses should have insulation in the cavities, WBCs don't unless added by the beekeeper.

 

[BKF Admin]

Manley hated wbc hives,he said from experiments he found that rather than insulate they were a trap for damp in the airspace between inner and outer box.

He went on to say that he believed the only place for them was as an empty ornament in a front garden.

 

[Dishmop]

I fail to see how frost can travel upwards.... cold yes...

The floors inside my hives dont have any frost on them....

 

[Hivemaker.]

The floors inside my hives dont have any frost on them..

Expect it's the heat loss from the bee's, keeping the floors frost free.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8117

 

[Somerford]

Well, it will be interesting to see how the colony in the Beehaus does - huge open mesh floor area, surrounded by sealed cavity plastic....with a gap here and there that was sealed by the bees in the Autumn.....

I like my Dartingtons more than the beehaus, thus far. The beehaus is in good use at present - as a good place for storing nearly sixty made-up frames until needed in the spring!

Regards, RAB

LOL - I love it when we think outside the box !

Thanks for the info ref-dartington

regards

S

 

[Somerford]

I must say that you in uk know little about insulation. how is your home insulation?

Have you in winter bottom away, doors open, insulation only above ceiling?

Finman - you must be taught in your schools that we still live in wattle and daub mud huts that blow away in the wind and have mud floors with a firepit and a smoke hole above.

Some of us even still wear animal skins and kill things with a club...


Our homes are actually pretty warm thanks, and suit the majority of the weather we experience (quakes, tornadoes excepted)

You'd be amazed, we actually sell insulation in our DIY stores, draught excluders and have double or even triple glazing on houses....

And our bees survive the winter, just like yours !

regards

S

 

[Dishmop]

The floors inside my hives dont have any frost on them..

Expect it's the heat loss from the bee's, keeping the floors frost free.

Exactly... but even if the bees were not there the floors still wouldnt have any frost on them even if the ground outside does....
Theres no frost inside my caravan or motorhome....... Plenty mucho cold tho..

 

[oliver90owner]

Now here in Ireland

All new build have those features, but there are still a lot of houses standing that were built using different building regulations!

Stop the draughts, insulate from top downwards. Frost will penetrate a solid floor by conduction but there are few better insulators than air (immediately above the floor), but it is no good at all if it rises (warm) and falls(cold) as in convection currents.

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

Finman - you must be taught in your schools that we still live in wattle and daub mud huts that blow away in the wind and have mud floors with a firepit and a smoke hole above.

Some of us even still wear animal skins and kill things with a club...


Our homes are actually pretty warm thanks, and suit the majority of the weather we experience (quakes, tornadoes excepted)

You'd be amazed, we actually sell insulation in our DIY stores, draught excluders and have double or even triple glazing on houses....

And our bees survive the winter, just like yours !

regards

S

i cannot believe not a word when I read your beekeeping tricks.
.

 

[Somerford]

titfortat

i cannot believe not a word when I read your beekeeping tricks.
.

that's entirely up to you. I can't understand half of what you type. Snap, we're equal.

S