i split the hive and they have still swarmed

[Dookie]

The title really explains my situation. Monday i split my hive because they had swarm cells and yesterday they swarmed. What have i done wrong?

Cheers

Richard

 

[Finman]

.
Splitting does not help if they have swarming fever on. Splitting is used as preventive operation. Colony is so weak that it is not ready to swarm. But true mongrels are always ready.

In swarm cell case do always AS. Then bees believe that they have swarmed. And do AS with foundations that they can make new combs.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What do you mean by splitting? did you ensure there were no QC;s left in the Q+ side.

 

[dexter's shed]

The title really explains my situation. Monday i split my hive because they had swarm cells and yesterday they swarmed. What have i done wrong?

Cheers

Richard

we really need more info as to what you did

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you moved your brood away and left the queen on one frame of brood in a new box with foundation and flyers you MUST check the AS a few days later to make sure there are no more queen cells made.
This is where I feel Pagden fails sometimes. There are lots of bees and they still want to swarm (foragers are the instigators of swarming after all).
They make a few swarm cells and off they go.

Edit
Ahhhh do you mean you split them two days ago?
Then you must have left the queen with a queen cell or two

 

[itma]

When swarming is on the cards, you do need to be thorough in your QC checking.

Ideally, you would leave one healthy open (well-charged) QC in the hive without Q. And no other QCs in either part.

And after the "Artificial Swarm" (not just a split) you need to check again in the Q- part (just before new Q is due to emerge) to ensure that the jolly little jokers haven't created a flush of extra cells on the last eggs Q laid before you took her away.
If you fail to do this 'exactly one week after' check of the Q- hive, then you should probably expect to see one or more 'cast' swarms departing with even more of your bees. (Pagden's side to side swapping is a different way of attacking the problem of casts. QC checking, done thoroughly, provides more assurance.)

To do these thorough QC checks you need to brush the bees of your chosen QC's frame (don't shake QCs that you want!) - so mark it with a drawing pin - and shake nearly all the bees off every other frame so that you can see everywhere that they might have tried to hide a QC. They can be very cunning!


Just because your bees have swarmed doesn't mean that is it over and done with.
You still have potential casts to deal with.

At this point, I'd suggest letting both parts of your split try to raise ONE QC each.
Thus you are getting two chances of raising a new Q.
In a few weeks, once you have Qs laying worker brood (or not), THEN you can then decide whether you will re-combine or make increase in some way (like keep one Q in a nuc colony, but recombine the bulk, so you have a decent colony plus a spare Q.)

 

[snelgrove]

I found that the artificial swarm fails most of the time with the bees building cells and old queen swarming obviously swarm instiinct has not been satisfied.removing cells a week later is of the utmost importance or casts will result. I have for a number of years simply take a nuc when cells are found this sometimes knocks them back a week or two some don't make queen cells again, then if cells are found again a shook swarm is taken hived up in a different apiary, job done. no further trouble with swarming from this colony.

 

[slangers]

I had the same issue with my first colony earlier in the year. I spotted just one QC and did an artificial swarm. Made extra sure that there were no other occupied QCs. The day after doing the AS the bees swarmed anyway. I was lucky enough to have the chance to recapture them, but being a newbie and face to face with my first ever swarm in a tricky ground location, I messed up and lost the queen. Ended up with two queenless colonies for a while, but 5 weeks on all is well with both.

I've heard that the AS method I was taught fails as often as it succeeds.

 

[8ace]

I had the same issue with my first colony earlier in the year. I spotted just one QC and did an artificial swarm. Made extra sure that there were no other occupied QCs. The day after doing the AS the bees swarmed anyway. I was lucky enough to have the chance to recapture them, but being a newbie and face to face with my first ever swarm in a tricky ground location, I messed up and lost the queen. Ended up with two queenless colonies for a while, but 5 weeks on all is well with both.

I've heard that the AS method I was taught fails as often as it succeeds.

Which AS method did you use as a matter of curiosity

 

[Finman]

I've heard that the AS method I was taught fails as often as it succeeds.

No, not at all. Who says so, he cannot do AS or he does not bother do according advice.

In my hives 1/20 perhaps fails. Some guys have not learned. They try use thrir own ideas, save work or do not do all necessary.

AS on ready combs fails often but I could say that with foundations i is very sure.

 

[beeno]

I thought the general consensus was that it is bored nurse bees that instigate swarming not foragers and that's why we put foragers and queen together.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Foragers find a new home and hustle the swarm out. I've heard them pipe them out. I thought I was hearing things but it's there in literature. Bored nurse bees are obviously part of it but having swarmed they wouldn't have a clue where to go having not been out of the hive. Wally Shaws modified snelgrove has the queen with brood and foragers making emergency cells.
Perhaps I should have said foragers instigate not the process but the exodus

 

[pargyle]

Are we talking to an empty room?

Yep ... OP left about half an hour after their post ... clearly didn't get the answer they wanted ?

 

[masterBK]

Not your bog standard foragers but the elite subset the "scout" bees many of which return to the parent colony once they have guided the swarm to the new nest.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I thought the general consensus was that it is bored nurse bees that instigate swarming not foragers and that's why we put foragers and queen together.

EH !?

so where have you heard this consensus? can't say I've ever heard or read of that theory.
Obviously Tom Seeley needs to go back to his books

 

[Torq]

I did an AS on Monday and they are still drawing queen cells in the box that holds the queen on the original site. I think that the problem is that there are too many bees in this box and I have an idea why.

Move the original hive to the side and replace with new brood box, X find queen, put her and frame she is on in the new brood box, knocking down any queen cells, replace supers.

The problem occurs at the red X. While you are faffing about looking for the queen, you are annoying the house bees and many of them go for a bit of a fly about and then back to their original site.

So your moved brood box is depleted of house bees but your AS box has the queen, flying bees AND house bees. So you still have the ingredients for swarming and the bees act accordingly.


My thoughts on how to overcome this. Do not move the original hive, find the queen and put her in the new box, put the supers on, but leave it to the side and close everything up. Leave for an hour to let everyone who is out flying go back to the original site

So in your AS box you have the queen, a bit of brood and the few house bees from the frame she was on. The flying bees will have gone home.

The original box has brood, house bees and all the flying bees.

Now swap them over.
The original box will loose all it's flying bees to the AS box leaving it with the house bees and brood.
The AS box will now have the queen, flying bees, a bit of brood and next to no house bees.



How does that sound?

 

[Thymallus]

I thought the general consensus was that it is bored nurse bees that instigate swarming not foragers and that's why we put foragers and queen together.

According to Jurgen Tautz it's older foraging bees reacting to longer unloading times during a flow (IMMSMC). Although I'm sure it's more complex than that. I've not heard of nurse bees being the cause before, although I'm open to persuasion.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

.............especially as one of the factors in swarming is the brood nest filling - nurse bees will be a tad too busy to be 'bored'

 

[B Special]

I have two queenless colonies and only have two colonies to my name. I simply cannot find them. I see no eggs etc. what will the colony do now ? Are they doomed ? It's been a tough first summer.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You need a test frame. Can you not beg a few eggs from a fellow BKA member?
Somebody here on the forum cut out a circle with a biscuit cutter.
If really queen less then buy either a couple of queens or just the one and unite.
Plenty of queens about.
BUT first try to find out why they are Q- so that you don't repeat the problem.
Have you any more information for us?