Hrlp - Brood chamber full of stores

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andyww

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hi,

i've hit on a problem. Following the application of the Demaree method the old brood chamber on top of my hives is now devoid of brood and jammed with stores.

What is the best way to get this into supers? If i put a crownboard over the existing super and maybe then an eke, then place the brood chamber with the stores on top, will the bees see this as something external to the hive and move it down?

Would it help if i scratched the frames?
 
The top brood frame is now a honey super - that is what happens with a Demarree, extract it, dispose of the older manky frames, keep the rest (stored wet)for your next Demarree
 
Also check that your extractor takes deep frames!!!!!
 
this is what's supposed to happen.

It isn't supposed to happen but it's what does happen when you don't do a demaree correctly. You are meant to constantly bring fresh frames of young brood from the bottom box up into the top box and put (hopefully) empty top frames where brood has just emerged back into the bottom box for the queen to lay in.
But most don't do this.
It's why I find a division board (Snelgrove/ Horsley etc) more useful. Bees then don't have access to the top brood box.
 
It isn't supposed to happen but it's what does happen when you don't do a demaree correctly. You are meant to constantly bring fresh frames of young brood from the bottom box up into the top box and put (hopefully) empty top frames where brood has just emerged back into the bottom box for the queen to lay in.
But most don't do this.
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Nope, to continue in your nitpicking manner - the 'correct' Demarree left the brood emerge and the cells fill with honey - the rolling Demarree is a more recent tweak (and one I use) but you still inevitably get honey stored in the top box during a strong flow.
 
Nope, to continue in your nitpicking manner - the 'correct' Demarree left the brood emerge and the cells fill with honey - the rolling Demarree is a more recent tweak (and one I use) but you still inevitably get honey stored in the top box during a strong flow.

Depends which version of Demaree you ascribe to. In his first description of swarm control by Demaree there are two boxes of bees involved....more like a Pagden. It has evolved over the years and there are a few versions. My point was really that the top brood box filling with honey is not necessarily considered correct by everyone.


Next post I'll produce the 1st article from ABJ that Demaree wrote
 
Controlling Increase, etc. G. W. DEMAREE.
Original article publish in ABJ around 1894??

It is not my purpose to " moralize," as the manner of some is on such occasions as this. Let the past with its successes and failures suffice us. It is with the present and future that we have to deal. It is enough to say that the past honey season has not been satisfactory to most of us. The flow of nectar from white clover was marvelously profuse, but the period was too short to give a full crop. Many of us made the mistake of laying our plans too broad for the short harvest, which we did not anticipate. I, for one, have learned something in that direction, and from that experience. Hereafter, I shall work my bees for what is in sight, and broaden my plans if the occasion demands and justifies it. I wish to call your attention to the fact that many persons begin to talk and write as though bee-culture, as a science and as a practical industry, has reached the fop round of the ladder. Let no one be deceived by the exhausted ideas of such. I am willing that it shall go to record when I say here, that the present mode of handling or manipulating bees and bee-implements, in short, the present system of bee-keeping, which we proudly call the "modern system," will, in the near future, be revolutionized and made a thing of memory only. There is no question, pertaining to apiculture in the South, of so much importance as that of controlling increase. In the North, where long, cold winters hold the " balance " with the grip of death, it is well enough to say, " let the bees swarm." With us, bees succumb to nothing but the expiration of the lease of life, or straight-out starvation. Not a fatal case of the disease known as dysentery or diarrhoea, in the North, has ever come to the knowledge of the writer, in all Central and Southern Kentucky. Most of us have seen bees with distended bodies when confined to the hives unusually long during unusually cold winters; but a single flight in the open air is all that is necessary to restore them to a normal condition. The Southern apiarist smiles at the conceit of the pollen and hibernation theorists. Our bees gather pollen eight months in the year, and "snap their fingers" at pollen chimera. As to the " sleepy-headedness " of bees: In January, 1881, my bees could be seen either.on the wing or stirring about the entrances of the hives every clay but three in that month. They wintered well without sleep (?). Why, sirs, if I should follow the advice of some who say, " let the bees swarm," my apiary wrould multiply to 2,000 colonies in four years, provided that I would covenant to let none of them starve ! In the light of these facts, any system of management that does not put the matter of increase entirely at the disposal of the apiarist, needsimprovement, and is sure to be improved. It occurred to me years ago that if queenless bees could be employed to produce honey, the problem would be solved ; and, now, after experimenting considerably in that direction, I am prepared to say that I can control increase by employing queenless bees to gather my surplus crop of honey; and in order that others may aid me in perfecting the new system, I will here give you a description of the practical working of the plan : In the early part of the honey season, the surplus cases are adjusted on the hives in the usual way, and "rurther proceedings continued " till the colonies show signs of swarming. I then move the old hive from its stand and put a new (or empty) hive in its place, and fill up the new hive with empty combs, one of which must contain some larvae just hatched from the eggs. The case or cases for surplus honey are now lifted off of the old hive and set, with all the bees in them, on the new hives. You now look up the queen and put the combs in which she is found, in your comb-box, and then proceed to shake the bees from the combs into the old hive right in front of the new one, having first provided a slanting board to lead the bees to the entrance. Place the combs back in the old hive, to which add the comb with the queen, and set the old hive at right angles with the new one. It is best to spread a cloth over the old hive to disguise it for a day or so. It will be seen that the new hive contains nearly all of the field workers, and a large portion of the young bees for comb-builders, while the old hive has all the brood with the queen, and enough workers and nurses to push forward brood-rearing. The bees in the new hive will start queen-cells and gather honey with the greatest rapidity. In five or six days we begin to turn the old hive, a little at a time, so as to stand close by the side of the new one, bringing the entrances of both hives, practically, together. At the expiration of ten daysif the honey season continued goodthe old colony will be strong enough to spare additional working force to the honey-producing colony in the new hive ; and to accomplish this, all we have to do is to turn the old hive back to its former position,at right angles with the new hive, at a time when the bees are in the fields in full force, and as they come home loaded, they will enter the new hive and recruit its failing strength. Of course the queen-cells must be removed, and freshly-hatched larvce given in their place. When all danger of swarming is over, the old hive is brought in line with the new one, and the bees are united by " tiering up " the new hive on the old one, and thus the honey-harvest is finished up by the united colony. It will be noticed that I speak of employing two hives for each colony, which I distinguish by the terms " new1\' and t; old/1 Well, now I propose to dispense with the extra cost of the \'L new hive,\'1 and in its place I use the supers or surplus cases adjusted on a recess bottom-board. When running a colony for comb honey, I will work a case of shallow extracting-combs on the recess board, and underneath the section-cases, to catch the pollen, if any is brought in. My recess bottom-boards are made just the width of the hive I use, and two inches longer. A strip of wood %x% of an inch is nailed to three sides of the board to give " bee space" under the cases which rest on the elevated rim formed by the strips of wood. The extra two inches in the length of the board is for an alighting-board. I have now given my new system of controlling increase suppressing swarming, if you prefer the terms, and producing honey with queenless bees. Of course there will be much criticism. A large minority of bee-culturists have always refused to accept anything "new" until they have" added some " improvement," worthless though it may be, to the new improvement or device. I do not object to this. Many fine inventions have been born of absurdity. Christiansburg, Ky.
 
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It is normal that in a good flow bees store nectar and honey into brood frames. You must only stand it and then put properly new foundations or empty combs.
When flow is over, bees arrange again their brood area and stores.

It is a big mistake if you put bees to move already stored honey or nectac somewhere else. Bees must have better to do.
Lift such frames to the super area and give to brood nest new empty frames.

What happened, it has nothing to do with demaree. Honey is in the hive, and that is the main purpose. Then arrange again that the hive does not get impulse of swarming fever.
 
Try this - from 1894, but said to be a slight improvement to an article he wrote two years previously. This is the first time he describes a single hive method of swarm avoidance so can be said to be the original Demarree method.
 

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Thanks for all your replies, still not clear if this swarm prevention approach has worked...

So my understanding is that you would leave the brood on the top of the hive, then as the young bees hatch you would remove the empty frames, whats happened by all accounts is there has been a flow and the bees have utilised the frames as they have been emptied on brood.

Given that i have no means of extracting brood frames and i actually want empty, clean brood frames; acknowledging its not ideal but would my original suggestion work, i.e. placing the brood above the crown board. Would they simply ignore it or would they work to move it back down into the hive?
 
So my understanding is that you would leave the brood on the top of the hive, then as the young bees hatch you would remove the empty frames

as bees emerge from the top box, you would take frames of brood from the bottom box,, move them up to the top box and move the vacated frames back to the bottom - even if the bees have begun to fill the frames with stores, the bees in the bottom box would shift it to allow the queen laying space.
If there's a flow on, doubt that putting frames of stores above the crown board would achieve anything.
what kind of extractor have you that you cannot etract deeps? most table top tangental extractors can dake a deep frame, with the larher radial extractors you can use removable screens to convert to tangental which will take deep frames.
 
Thanks for all your replies, still not clear if this swarm prevention approach has worked...

So my understanding is that you would leave the brood on the top of the hive, then as the young bees hatch you would remove the empty frames, whats happened by all accounts is there has been a flow and the bees have utilised the frames as they have been emptied on brood.

Given that i have no means of extracting brood frames and i actually want empty, clean brood frames; acknowledging its not ideal but would my original suggestion work, i.e. placing the brood above the crown board. Would they simply ignore it or would they work to move it back down into the hive?

It is better to forget those your principles because beekeeping cannot succeed that way.

For example situation of frames. If frames are up, bees fill them with honey. If you put them down, bees store valuable pollen there.

What is the point in " not to extract brood frames". You may loose most of your annual yield.
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It is common, that after a flow double brood hive has 4 capped honey frames in the brood box. Only wise way is to extract those frames.

If the brood box does not have enough space to store pollen, bees will store it into supers.
Pollen stores are necessary to feed larvae and youg bees continuously.

If you have old combs, which are full of pollen, put the combs between larva frames and bees will eate the pollen store. Then those cbs will be filled with brood. After that lift the combs over excluder and bees fill combs with honey when bees emerge.

After extraction you have empty combs and take combs from usage.
 
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I'm not a fan of the Demaree method for the reasons you suggest. Brood frames are more useful for brood. I would spin the frames out and get them back in circulation. If you are like me and need the space and don't't have a million nuc boxes, getting your head around using the Snelgrove board for pre-emptive swarm control and when you find a QC is worth it. This is a good site http://www.killowen.com/swarms.html
 

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